JSM- Masters of the Sweep

Three years ago I moved from North Carolina to Baton Rouge to begin a job as Webmaster for Jimmy Swaggart Ministries. I did not know much about the ministry, but I needed a job and the idea of working for a ministry seemed appealing. The Swaggart’s seemed nice enough at first, but I was soon to find out that this kindness was only offered in exchange for my complete loyalty and subjection to totalitarian-like control.

In the days and weeks after moving to Baton Rouge, I was perplexed at the oddity of my everyday encounters with ministry employees. People seemed burdened and stressed. When smiles were given, they were the stiff and sterile kind, not the kind that invades your face, and crinkles your eyes. In my mind it should have been the most joy filled environment in the world to work in and the lack of levity concerned me. People seemed guarded and paranoid, and never spoke of the Swaggarts without lowering their voice and quickly looking around to see who might be listening. People seemed particularly fearful of Frances. I remember it was at times like this that I would defend her. “Oh really”, I would gush, “she is really the nicest person and has been so kind to me”. They would stare back at me unblinking, with cold, dead eyes. I could see I was not convincing them. I could also see that it was not up for discussion.

I still remember someone entering my office and commencing to talk to me in a barely audible voice. I laughed and said, “What, do you think it’s bugged”? They looked at me dead serious and said, “Well, it wouldn’t be the first time”. I wondered then, just who, or what, I had become involved in.

The three years I spent there were three of the hardest years of my life. My sentence came to an abrupt end when I was fired unceremoniously along with four other people. The only thing that tied all four of us together was an unsolicited email that had been sent to my work address which outlined some highly offensive material that was being printed in the ministry’s print shop. Being masters of the sweep, it was important for them to silence the voice of anyone that knew, lest they infect others with the truth. At Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, it seems that being righteous is not nearly as important as looking righteous.

In the days that followed, the print-shop worker who had been so outraged over what he had been asked to print decided to talk to Jimmy. He was still under the impression that Jimmy did not know. He believed, as I had for so long, that somehow there was a rogue element loose in the ministry perpetrating these things without Swaggart’s knowledge. I felt compassion for him as I knew that when the acid of truth ate through his wall of denial, it would be particularly painful. It was.

If I could count the number of people who said to me in my three years there that there was something not right. There was too much secrecy, too much control of information. By controlling the information an individual has, they limit the person’s ability to think for themselves. Individuality is not prized at JSM and is targeted for special treatment. This special treatment involves isolation, shunning, and coercive persuasion. It is a process designed to break a person’s individuality and replace it with their cloned group-think. If a person still does not bend, then an artfully crafted piece of gossip is skillfully inserted into the grapevine to destroy the person’s character. They have it down to an art form. I watched it happen to others, and I experienced the pain, frustration, and humiliation of it, when it happened to me.

Most people cave in and conform. Faced with forces they feel unable to escape from, they adapt. They learn to anticipate problems and manipulate events to avoid self-incrimination. It is hard to even realize it is happening to you when you don’t know who your enemy is. Your enemy seems like they are your very best friend and advocate and only have your very best interests at heart.

At Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, people come to expect humiliation, isolation, ostracism and punishment, because they can never live up to the ideal. Since they set themselves up to be the ultimate judge of good and evil, their employees live in a state of constant fear of failure, fear of being fired, and constant guilt and shame over perceived wrongs they may have committed against the organization. It does not help that the rules seem to constantly change or that there are two sets of rules.

On more than one occasion when I was being given a particularly coercive talk about my absence from church, Frances remarked that she knew me better than I knew myself. Odd, since scripture clearly states that no one but God can know the heart of man. She was setting herself up to be Holy Spirit to me, to lead me and guide me in the ways she deemed righteous. It did not seem to matter to her that attending church there was never made a condition of my employment, nor did it matter that there were many people employed there who did not go to church at all, including members of her own extended family. When I told Frances that there were many “unsaved” people who worked there she looked at me coldly and said, “Well that is different, they are unsaved and they don’t go to church anywhere.” Clearly in her eyes it was better to be unsaved than to be saved and not go to their church.

After my own experience, I began to search through online material and books to see what others had experienced. I knew that the mistreatment of those in their employ had to be a pattern. In some ways, what I found was therapeutic. Reading the experiences of others and knowing that I was not alone, that many others had experienced similar mistreatment, was somehow affirming. For obvious reasons, one of the first sources I looked at was award-winning investigative journalist John Camp. Although certainly not the focus of his investigations, he describes some instances that to those of us who have been at the receiving end, seem all too familiar.

In his book, Odyssey of a Derelict Gunslinger, John B. Camp describes how he initially became interested in digging deeper into Jimmy Swaggart Ministries. He describes what he refers to as a “sad-faced truck driver” showing up at his office who complained that he and his wife had been fired unjustly.

“The man drove one of the eighteen-wheeler rigs that transported television production equipment, gospel recordings and a variety of religious merchandise to Swaggart’s twice-monthly crusades.

The couple had relocated from the Midwest for the specific purpose of becoming helpmates of Jimmy and Jesus. She worked in the warehouse that processed the ministry’s huge mail-order business. However, she was labeled a trouble-maker after complaining of sexual harassment by a supervisor, and the couple was fired.”

Not long after, Camp had a mid-level manger arrive at his office who complained about “Jimmy’s arbitrary and unchristian-like treatment.” He gave Camp a stack of internal memoranda that suggested that “the ministry’s top three executives- Jimmy, his wife Frances and their son, Donnie, were overbearing micro-managers consumed with minutiae.”

Camp goes on to explain that initially he was not interested in doing a piece on what amounted in his mind to, “internal whining”, but also did not want to overlook a story that had essentially been handed to him.

“I started to contact other disaffected former employees. The complaints were much the same- people disillusioned by the perceived arrogance of Brother Jimmy and his family.”

Camp was still not satisfied that he had a story worth pursuing until he met George Jernigan, Swaggart’s former Director of Finance. Not surprisingly, Jernigan had been fired for urging Swaggart to be frank in his fund-raising appeals. The controversy primarily involved Swaggarts misappropriation of funds gathered through emotional appeals in which pictures of emaciated African children were shown to garner the empathy (and cold hard cash) of his Christian viewers. According to Jernigan, contributions were not going to the Children’s Fund but were being siphoned into the general account. Only pennies on the dollar were actually being spent in the feeding of starving children.

In, Odyssey of a Derelict Gunslinger, Camp describes his encounter with Jernigan.

“George Jernigan was not the kind of guy to maliciously spread gossip. Tall and slender with a rounded beard sans mustache, his posture and deliberate manner gave him the appearance of a stern Amish farmer. He remained almost reverently subdued in criticizing his former employer, once interrupting my questioning to pray for guidance before answering. …. After prayerful meditation, Jernigan told me of the ministry’s extravagant spending, and explained how contributions of jewelry and other goods were converted for personal use by the Swaggart family. His biggest criticism was directed at a fund-raising gimmick called the ‘Children’s fund.’”

When Jernigan complained to Swaggart about the misrepresentations, he was unceremoniously fired. In speaking at a tape-recorded staff meeting not long after the firing of Jernigan, Swaggart had this to say.

“Some of the Brothers here have questioned my judgment. Let me set the record straight. I have forgotten more about administration and organization and business than most of you will ever learn. I know what I’m doing. I probably know more about what I am doing than any man you’ve ever laid eyes on in your life. Don’t ever think I don’t know what I am doing. Somebody talks about the chain of command and you’re looking at the whole chain, every link in it.”

Camp also describes an encounter with the ministry’s former Director of Spiritual Counseling, Noble Scroggins. Scroggins recounted an incident involving an elderly woman who wrote that she and her sisters had fallen on hard times and were barely existing on their meager social security checks.

“The sisters were contributors to fundraising appeals to feed starving children. But facing hard times, they were unable to fulfill pledges. The letter asked if it would be sinful to commit suicide so that proceeds of their life insurance policies could go to the Children’s Fund.”

Scroggins ran to Swaggart’s office expecting him to immediately call the woman and dissuade her from any suicidal ideation. Instead, Swaggart casually set the letter aside. Scroggins resigned.

In an article that appeared in the December 1986 edition of Spin magazine, a Swaggart executive described scores of ministry employees being subjected to lie detector tests when it was suspected that someone was leaking information to John Camp. If the ministry had nothing to hide, why take such extreme and invasive measures against employees. If a person has nothing to hide then generally, they hide nothing. What were they afraid was going to be exposed? The truth?

According to a ministry executive who took the test, passed, but later resigned, overweight ministry employees were subjected to mandatory weight loss programs in order to keep their jobs.

“Frances got on this kick,” he said, “that everybody was too fat, so she made everybody go on this mandatory weight-loss program. The incentive was, you got to keep your job- so many people took it very seriously and got very upset.”

He got the message that Frances Swaggart thought it was un-Christian to look fat. He adds, “Frances had been rubbing elbows with the jet set for such a long time that she felt that everybody needed to shape up.” Spin Magazine, December 1986 edition.

Interestingly enough, in the book, Swaggart: The Unauthorized Biography of an American Evangelist by Ann Rowe Seaman, the incident is also mentioned.

“In early 1985 she [Frances] instituted a weight policy explaining that it has something to do with insurance rates. Everybody had to go down the basement and stand in line to be weighed once a month. There were departmental competitions and individual “losers” were recognized in chapel; big losers got to travel with Jimmy and Frances to the next crusade.

The explanation about insurance rates appeared to be a fiction when the Bible college students were also pressured to lose weight. And of course there was favoritism said Larry Thomas- “If a four-dollar-an-hour employee got fat, there was pressure to lose weight. If a family member or a very, very valuable employee got fat there was no pressure.”

I believe when Frances hires someone she truly believes she owns them, all of them; from the thoughts in their head to the flesh on their bones.

In Seaman’s book she describes an incident in which a long time producer is fired by Frances after being seen shaking the hand of a former JSM pastor who had started a rival church. When a television engineer dared to question the unfair termination, he too was fired. A group of employees then went to Frances to protest the terminations.

“Jimmy…. heard the ruckus and came through the [connecting] door,” said an ex-television cameraman for the ministry. He pointed to one of the employees and asked if the ministry had ever done anything to hurt her. Yes she said.

“You’re fired!” said Jimmy. Then he turned to another and asked him the same question. The answer was yes. “You’re fired!” said Jimmy. Frances honor had to be protected. “She was still his wife,” said the ex-cameraman. “Love or hate he had to take up for her.” Swaggart: The Unauthorized Biography of an American Evangelist, Ann Rowe Seaman

An interesting book to peruse should you be fortunate enough to find a copy, is Jimmy Swaggart, Dead Man Rising, by the late Barbara Nauer. The book is out of print and copies on Ebay or Amazon are cost prohibitive to say the least. I tracked down a copy at the Louisiana State Library and although not able to withdraw the book, I was able to photocopy it. Because I realize that most readers will not be sufficiently interested enough to stand in a downtown library and stuff quarters into a copy machine, I have extracted a few items of interest.

Barbara Nauer worked as Jimmy’s editor for several years. Her book is well written, easy to read, and clearly illustrates the ministry’s cavalier attitude towards its underlings. In the incident that follows, she describes the dissolution of a successful ministry outreach and the subsequent ill-treatment of its faithful employees.

“The bus ministry had been for several years the impressive spiritual work of several of Swaggart’s “young lions”. These were bright young ministers, graduates of Jimmy Swaggart’s Bible College, who with their wives and girlfriends, young women just as committed as they were, had designed and put into operation the bus ministry’s impressive program of games, skits, meals, musicals, outings and preachings for the disadvantaged kids.

Of late the young ministers had been running a parallel mid-week ministry to the parents of their regular weekend kids. They had the Academy schoolteachers volunteering to teach reading and writing to those ghetto parents who wished to learn these skills……Anyone familiar with this youth-driven charitable outreach was faintly in awe of it.

….As one pair of middle-aged chaperones for the buses put it, the mere fact that, week after week, the ghetto children sat still for hours, listening to preachings and watching Christian morality plays, “could make you believe in God”.

Nauer then goes on to say that it was suddenly and inexplicable over. In a single weekend the bus ministry was wiped out, the fleet of buses sold, and the Tucker Building, which had housed the bus ministry, rented out.

She further explains how the morale among employees plummeted as they realized that without warning, these young ministers were turned out into an impossibly tight job market. Nauer was further distressed to find out that the ministry had no intentions of giving the suddenly unemployed young ministers letters of reference. Thinking this must surely be an oversight, she went to Frances and offered to draft a form letter on her lunch hour which could be issued in Frances name. This way, at least the young men would be armed with a job reference in their formidable search for employment. Baton Rouge was known to have one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation at that time, and the job market was virtually impenetrable.

“Even as I spoke, I could tell that Jimmy’s wife was at a loss to imagine why such an exercise as I was describing might be called for. At length, Mrs. Swaggart flicked a hand as if brushing a fly away from her eyes. “Oh Barbara, that’s not important. Go back to what you were doing.”

Frances was clearly unconcerned. Not surprising for any of us that have had more than a fleeting encounter with her.

Quite honestly, I can say from my own personal experience that I have seen more people fired in my three years at JSM than I have in all my working years, and in all my jobs combined. The turnover rate is astronomical. It is not required by law in Louisiana to give a reason for dismissal and at JSM, reasons are seldom given. One would think they would aspire to ascribe to a higher law, but in their minds they are the law. Employee’s questions are simply met with, “you know why you are being fired” or “I don’t have to tell you.”

In the corporate world people are nearly always terminated for justifiable and measurable reasons. It would be unfathomable for a major corporation to refuse an employee a reason for dismissal. They do this for the development of the person they are firing! Several warnings, both oral and written are given well in advance of the termination and employees are never left to guess what the terminable offence might have been. How much more would we expect fairness from a “Christian” organization?

The day I was terminated I sat while Frances read the “confidentiality” agreement to a fellow employee. When I asked why I was being fired she stated “I don’t have to tell you” in a sing-song voice then smiled like the Cheshire cat, a smug little smile. It was literally the response a spoiled five-year old child would have given. She did not give a reason because there wasn’t one; at least not one that would have been justifiable in anyone’s eyes but hers. At JSM, terminable offences were rarely performance based but rather based on paranoia and a maniacal need for control and unbridled loyalty. That loyalty includes covering up the things they do. Sorry, but my loyalty ends there. My soul is not for sale.

Since the ministry is a non-profit organization they are not required to participate in the unemployment insurance program. Nor, might I add, do they pay into any benefits for their employees. Terminated employees are left completely without a means to provide for themselves or their families. A significant portion of ministry employees, live on ministry grounds in the Bluebonnet Towers. The Towers are owned by the ministry, but rooms and apartment units are also rented to the general public. Many employees are terminated only to come home and find that they have also been evicted. There are no leases at Bluebonnet Towers and rentals are month to month. Precisely, I presume, in order to exercise this kind of control. Evicted tenants are given thirty days to vacate legally, but stories abound of instances where tenants have been given a day or less.

It is criminal in my mind that an organization that purports to care so much about saving the lost, cares so little about the found. It is unimaginable how they could fire someone and evict them in the same day. How would they even hope to secure alternate living arrangements? Who would rent an apartment to an unemployed person? Many who have come from out of State to work, are left abandoned, and in desperate straits. There most certainly will not be any help for these unfortunate souls from Family Worship Center. The shunning and dis- fellowshipping of former employees is openly encouraged and the ministry is most certainly not known for its charity.

I have always had a heart for the homeless. Within months of arriving in Baton Rouge, I remember reading that the city’s homeless shelter was in desperate need of sheets. I went to Frances and asked if we could put this need in the bulletin. Surely there were people in the congregation that would donate sheets to the shelter. I assured her that I would collect the sheets and take them to the shelter on behalf of the church. She looked at me with a disgusted and almost incredulous look. “Uhh”, she spat out hatefully, “those people just need to get jobs”.

No, there is certainly no charity at Jimmy Swaggart Ministries.

Recently, I spoke to a young man, Danny Wright, who had worked in donor services, attended the Bible College, and played drums for the Crossfire Worship Band. His mother had recently passed in a tragic accident and he was struggling both spiritually and emotionally. He went to a friend’s house where he consumed alcohol. Three months later he was suddenly called to account for it. He was expelled from the college, ousted from the band, and fired from his job. Had he been unfortunate enough to live at Bluebonnet Towers, he would have been evicted too. The ironic thing is that a very high proportion of the students go to the bars, drink and party. A fact that is well-known by most who work there. When the young man brought this up to his accusers, Gabriel Swaggart himself admitted that yes, there was a great deal of that occurring, but they were there to discuss him. Danny further stated to Gabriel that if the ministry were to pursue everyone in this manner, they would literally have to fire everyone under the age of thirty, save two.

When he recounted his story to me he paused, lowered his head and said, “Maybe if I had been caught with a prostitute they would have had grace for me. Maybe then I could have been forgiven”. He then looked up and added. “You would think that they, of all people, would know a little something about grace and forgiveness”. I will never forget that conversation.

Another eye-opening and gut wrenching first hand account of employee abuse comes from former band member Kerry Rhys. Kerry and his wife Allison-Collins Rhys were both employed by the music department at Jimmy Swaggart Ministries. While I do not know them personally, I am familiar with their story. In a personal blog entry entitled, “For those who have written and asked why”, Kerry describes how both he and his wife were terminated from the ministry.

“One day a surprise meeting for the entire music department was called, mandatory attendance for all employees. As we (about 25 employees) sat waiting to see what it was about, Frances Swaggart walked in and proceeded to interrogate us about things that someone told her were being said. Allison was not mentioned during this time. At the end, Robin stood up and said pretty unexpectedly “Allison you’ve made some very bad decisions”. A little confused as Allison and I had no clue to what was going on, Robin said “a married couple here has been coming to me on a regular basis telling me you are saying things about the ministry. It’s happening often and I think where there is smoke there is fire”. We wouldn’t find out what he was talking about until two years later.

A week after the group meeting with Frances and Robin’s cryptic statement, Allison got a phone call and was read a memo over the phone by Nikki Tracy that she had been terminated from JSM. I was fired by association with no explanation. Allison was five months pregnant at this time, we had no idea what we would do for money.”

He goes on to explain how his wife was later called in to Frances office and told that it was all a misunderstanding. She was instead placed on suspension without pay which lasted seven months. Debts were mounting as they continued to assure her week after week that it would soon be worked out and she would be hired back.

“At this time Swaggart insisted she meet with Robin, that she would only be hired back if Robin approved. She met with Robin, he told her he did not want her back but she managed to grovel, cry, and beg enough to get her job back. Upon returning to work she was told that the salary which she was initially offered would no longer be paid. At this point she was paid less than half of what many others were paid. A huge cut in salary. I was hired back full-time a few months later, also for half of my former salary. Our take home pay was now below the poverty level for just one individual, much less two adults supporting three children.”

Their debts continued to mount until they found themselves faced with the final notice for legal foreclosure on their home. They were given ten days before their home would be sold at a sheriff’s auction and needed to come up with two months mortgage plus legal costs. Desperate for money, Allison agreed to sing with her husband, Bob Henderson, and Jeremy Downey at a local club. When Frances found out, Kerry and Allyson were fired. While I understand that they had agreed to not sing secular music while working for the ministry, it was common knowledge that others had been doing the very same for a very long time while the Swaggart’s looked the other way.

Before I woke up the next morning Allison had received a call that she was terminated from the ministry. Bob and Jeremy were also said to have been fired by Robin. When I woke up Jeremy was already over at our house. While sitting on our couch Robin called Jeremy and I listened on the speaker phone when Robin told Jeremy that he and Bob would not be fired….only Allison.

…….We’ve had people tell us they have approached Frances to ask what happened to Allison and her answer was “Allison decided she wanted to go do her own thing”. The truth is she was fired after being set up by people in the church, suspended for seven months without pay, then hired back for a fraction of her original salary. Then fired after she sang two songs with other church musicians that were kept on at the ministry.

Recently I had the privilege of taking at great length with Tareva Henderson about her experiences at the ministry. Someone had sent me a link to a letter she had written to a website that had been openly critical of her. She was warm and unpretentious. Her experiences there were all too familiar; the isolation and shunning, the brainwashing, it was like hearing my own experiences through someone else’s lips.

I went there years ago after the downfall around 2003 only to help my brother because he told me the music department was in a mess and falling apart. I had plans to move to Florida so I offered to sub part-time and do some tunes to help because I never get to see my brother. They offered me a huge salary to take a full-time leadership position over the stage. I declined because my Florida plans were in place and the longer I hung around to sub I just saw too much that broke my heart. …..

The place was empty and sad and a spirit of oppression ran across the building because no one trusted each another or anyone else. Workers were miserable and were constantly asking me “how do you get out of here”?? It blew me away at first because they made it sound like a prison. As time went by I saw it was…………i.e. people’s jobs and families were threatened if they didn’t go along with all the games…..

Once I tried to help a girl with a newborn that was stranded in BR because she came in from out-of-town to a camp meeting and her car broke down. I took her over to the dorms and they said “send her to the salvation army we run this like a business not a ministry”. I ended up paying for her a room that night. I looked everywhere in the place to find something that felt “Christ Like” but it was nowhere.

The dooms about divorce was always preached then Donnie’s “second” marriage is to a girl that’s been divorced five times, and the married couples working there cheating on one another with other employees; Families turning against one another like enemies of war over money and who is right…

…People often ask me, “Why don’t you work there”? They play me often on their radio and TV shows to raise big money. At the time I was there, I didn’t even know I was being recorded, then I later talked to other singers who encountered the same experience.

…I don’t believe in selling salvation, then or now or ever. Tareva Henderson

Tareva related to me that when she was first asked to work for the music department she told Jimmy Swaggart that she did not believe as he did, as she was a Unitarian. He looked at her and said, “Well, we are willing to look the other way on that.” Later in the conversation she related an incident that had left her shaken. She had a book on the seat in her car that was perhaps not the type of spiritual material that the ministry would have approved of. Although I did not ask, I would imagine that it was a book that might be more in line with her beliefs. Beliefs I might add, that she made plain to the ministry before she was hired. One of the ministry spies (and there are always multitudes jockeying for this position), happened to see the book in Tareva’s car and went to Frances. Frances in turn called Tareva in, and started questioning her about the types of books she liked to read. Initially she did not know what the inquiry was about and seemed confused as to why Frances would be so interested in her choice of reading material. Slowly it dawned on her that someone must have spied the book on the seat of her car. Frances asked her to bring her the book and Tareva complied by retrieving the book and handing it over. Frances then demanded that Tareva go home and retrieve any and all such books and bring them to her so they could be destroyed.

This kind of maniacal control is legendary and quite mind bending if you happen to be on the receiving end of it. I was, on more than one occasion, asked to remove things from my own website. The first time occurred after someone had written something non-complimentary about the Swaggarts on my forum. I had at that time defended the Swaggarts but left the comment intact. I had never made it a practice to remove posts from my forum whether I agreed with them or not. That was the whole idea of a having a forum! Frances called me to her office and told me to remove it. I complied. It was crystal clear to me early on, that refusal was not an option.

The second time occurred after I posted an article to my website that she did not agree with. Ironically enough, it had been written by a JSM minister under an anonymous name. She not only demanded I remove it, but also demanded I give her the name of the person who wrote it. I refused. I knew full well that she knew who it was. The game seemed pointless to me. She knew who it was, I knew she knew, but still she pressed. I refused on principle alone, but did remove the article. What choice did I have?

It has taken these two months since my departure to get over the feeling of being under constant surveillance. It was fascinating to me to read in Nauer’s book that others had remarked about this very same thing. When I came here, the ministry had one paltry and disjointed website. Their web presence was virtually non-existent. In my three years under their employ, I created and maintained six ministry websites, effectively establishing their online presence and catapulting them into prominence in the search engines. In return, I was fired without cause, with no severance pay, no ability to collect unemployment insurance, and certainly no letter of reference. This has placed me in a precarious situation since I am alone in Baton Rouge, my closest family residing in Canada. Regardless, there has only been one inquiry by anyone associated with the ministry since my departure. Of one thing I am certain, Jimmy Swaggart Ministries is and never was, my provider. I serve a loving God, whose Grace is sufficient, and His provisions astounding. Selah.

Comments

  1. Jim Mettenbrink says:

    I always thought the “devil was in the details.” Looks like he is at the top.

    • I am not sure I understand what you mean.

    • Wolves in sheepskins. I know the type all too well. They are devils. They are pharisees who are obsessed with appearing outwardly good. I thought this particular brand of evil was just local, as in my own family, but lo, it seems to be intrinsic with everyday Christians, especially in America. If that is the case, we as a nation have fallen in dark place with no hope of escape.

      Overall, my assessment about what is happening with members of my family is spot on. They are full of self righteousness and evil deeds. And all this time I beat myself for being a failure in the eyes of God. If I can be honest and make that confession, there is hope for me. But for them, it appears they are truly lost.

  2. jim nations says:

    frances swaggart is a precious woman of god who has the weight of a huge ministry on her shoulders. the amount of work she does for an almost 80 year old woman is amazing. one does not reach her status without being a strong leader and demanding loyalty from her employees. the woman i might add has been put through hell by her husband with all the scandals and she is the one who has kept the ministry together and prospering and provide employment to hundreds of people. god bless frances and jsm. perhaps you should hightail it back to canada and try to find god and then apologize to sister frances.
    jim nations.

    • Galatians 4:16 (Have I therefore become your enemy by telling you the truth?)

      What exactly do I need to apologize for? Should I apologize for telling the truth? Should I apologize for knowing about the nasty hip hop covers and night club posters they were printing in their MINISTRY printshop? Should I apologize for being outraged at the lack of integrity, lies, coverup,and rampant UNCHECKED sexual sin? Should I apologize for being concerned over the wanton disregard for proper exegesis? What exactly is it that you would like me to apologize for?

      First of all I highly doubt this comment came from Jim Nations. I traced the IP address to West Monroe- I also traced the email address to an address in Winnsboro, LA. Instead of Nations couldn’t your last name be White? While I have been disappointed that Jim has failed to take a stand against what I am quite confident he KNOWS is going on there, I sincerely doubt he would stoop to this level.

      Mishel

      • You can’t serve God and mammon. They overcame by the Blood and the Word of Their Testimony. We can’t trust in flesh. We must test the spirits. Pray for the weak.
        I am so tired sister. Please pray for the Body of Christ. There are so many shut ins that love the Lord and they are robbed by the beguiling familiar spirits.
        Praise the Lord that the Word was preached.
        Many men will stand at judgement and claim all of their good works and the Lord will say “depart from me, I never knew you, you workers of iniquity! It is hard for me to accept a gift from someone who has it to give. Imagine getting gifts and let alone begging for them from someone who is in need.
        Thank You for being a sister of the True and Merciful God our PRECIOUS LORD JESUS!
        A spiritual man judgeth all things, yet he is judged by NO MAN!
        Be gentle as a dove and as wise as a serpent.
        Love In Christ Jesus, Linda

      • I am raising my autistic Grandchild with a life threatening illness and I am unable to go to church.I watch SLB on TV all the time.I believe in God and after reading this I am afraid I am
        being mislead.What should I do ?

        • I would suggest not to watch all to often, They preach quite a bit of truth and that’s why they are so dangerous, then they mix in damnable doctrines that can’t be found in the bible so they will point you exclusively to Jimmy’s expositors bible and commentaries to I doctrinaire you with their new theology. Of course it’s really not new at all it is a mixture of lies that have been circulating through the church for years.

          • I would just like to point out that have an expositors bible and its been a tremendous blessing and encouragement. Its simply a study bible with notes to help one understand the scripture better.

          • Yes it certainly can spoon feed you Jimmy’s opinions without stimulating and try study of the bible simply taking his comments and gulping them down. A good study bible very well may have some notes but should also have an abundance of scripture references to stimulate searching and verifying for yourself. The expositors bible has very few scripture references, it will on occasion but mostly just Jimmy’s notes. I have read about 70% of it notes included and of course their are some good things but jimmy has such a mixed bag of theology it is inconstant in many areas as with their teaching.

      • Jim Nations did not write that email. He would be fired for saying that Jimmy has put Frances through Hell. While he certainly would defend Frances, he would defend Jimmy also. He is one of the insiders.

      • Mishel…I was there when some of the things you mentioned happened…I have followed Jimmy since the seventies….and some of what you say is incorrect..especially about the bus ministry…I was there when the two men got the word about the bus ministry…and it didn’t quit then…yes, they sold some buses…but…I won’t go into details because these men are in other jobs…but it is not as you said…this is first hand knowledge.

        Jimmy and frances aren’t perfecxt…they are control freaks…but their name is on the ministry..you don’t like it…leave…do I say that is a good way to run it…in a way yes…in a way no…

        but I do not believe in the gross errors in doctrine….I learned more there in the years i was there than other places..the man is well versed..

        Is he perfect…NO…has he made mistakes..yeah…why is it so bad….because he is seen by so many…..but we see this on a smaller scale in smaller churches…

        I could write a page or two about this…suffice to say…when the two pastors walked out of pastor rentz’s office, I was standing there with their wives and heard word for word what happened…so the bus ministry stuff is wrong.

        • I did not witness the bus ministry incident personally, the source was noted in the above article. If you say that it did not happen that way then I have no reason to disbelieve you. It would simply be your word against the person who wrote the book and I am more concerned with truth than painting the Swaggarts in any particular way. I am willing to admit this fact could be wrong.

          You seem sincere and I do respect your opinion, however there are hundreds of first person testimonies, including mine that contradict your experiences there. Having said that, I have no doubt that you are telling me the truth and that your experiences were positive.

          I do NOT expect the Swaggarts to be perfect, however I DO expect them to live by the standards they espouse. When they preach so vehemently against hip-hop music while profiting through printing lewd covers for local hip hop bands, I have a problem with that. When they profit from printing posters for an area gay club, I also have a problem with that. Likewise I have a problem with them using the ministry printing press which was paid with by people’s donations and using it for a shadow business by another name with funds coming straight back to the ministry. Yeah, call me crazy but I have a problem with that. Also, before you ask, YES they knew about it and I have proof of that fact.

          I do appreciate your testimony though and am glad that your experiences were not like so many others.

      • Thank you for sharing your experiences. I thought Jimmy Swaggart went away after the sex scandals, but then I recently ran across a service on SBN. I felt like I was in a time-warp! I was raised in a pentecostal church very similar to FWC. The environment was so unhealthy! I couldn’t believe they are singing the same songs we were singing 50 years ago and preaching against other churches and pastors that they don’t like! The Swaggarts appear delusional! They’ve convinced themselves that they have ALL truth, that they are the only church preaching the TRUE gospel, etc. They only use the KJV, and of course, the Expositor’s Bible written by Jimmy, as if only he has the true revelation of scripture! They act like their ministry is HUGE! It’s clear that there has been too many years of inbred thought without oversight by wiser, more mature and more loving people. I’m praying that they stay small…and don’t damage the gospel message any more than they already may have!

    • Amen Jim……Amen!

    • Get real.This lady is trying to warn people and preach the REAL truth of deception.I am a Christian and I have concern for JSM but they tell so many different stories that it is so sad for sinners that do not know what to believe.I. have heard so many call them hypocrites and the woods are full of them.I love Johnny Clarey and I pray that he does not change but I see a sadness in his face that wasn’t there at first.Seems as if something is pulling him down .SOMEBODY WILL ANSWER FOR JSM ‘S UNGODLY ACTS..”My opinion “

      • David Sanchez says:

        I watch Sonlife on occasions, but it is a little disturbing watching the arrogance of Donnie Swaggart on the Frances & Friends Show. When callers call in to ask a question, Frances and Donnie just seem a little rude at times. I do not see humility at all with these two. Something just doesn’t ring right with this ministry. Another turn off is their study Bible they consistently advertise. The Expositor’s Bible. I purchased it and returned it right back. It is very distracting trying to read the Word and Jimmy’s comments all over in red lettering. It’s like he was literally adding to the Word. Anyone has this Bible?

        • Best thing you could have done…..returning that Bible! I don’t understand why anyone would believe that a guy as uneducated as Swaggart would have complete understanding of ALL scripture! There are dozens of excellent translations, paraphrases and commentaries on the market done by many scholarly writers, linguists and theologians! Swaggarts teaching and writing is full of false doctrine, contradictions and misrepresentations. He is highly opinionated and arrogant! I don’t know of ANY other human being who thinks they have complete knowledge of God and His Ways, and that everyone else is wrong! It’s despicable!

  3. There is no way jim nations of jsm/fwc made those remarks in the earlier comment. Anyone who knows Frances Swaggart even a little bit know that she does not want any mention of her age (yes, almost 80 is correct, she is 75 1/2 to be exact, with DOB 8/9/1937), and absolutely no reminders of the sex scandals that brought JSM down from the absolute zenith of financial income, respectability, and influence, to the state it is now – which is actually quite successful, but not in comparison to its former state. So Jim Nations would never have brought up those two taboo subjects.

    If I were to make a guess, the person who did the posting is trying to bring Jim Nations down. There is a ton of internal jealousy and backstabbing at the JSM/FWC.

    • Well that is true- there is a horrendous amount of infighting there- they would gnaw each other’s heads off with their bare teeth if they thought it would bring them an extra dollar and a bit of recognition.

  4. Mishel,
    Fantastic blog here! Captivated me for several hours these past few weeks! Thank you for your honesty and frankness here, very refreshing in this day where too many lack discernment in the church, and/or lack the courage to confront it.
    I do remember vividly the events of Jimmy Swaggart’s fall 25 years ago, I was in Springfield, MO at the time attending school. Had some good friends who were unfortunately attending JSBC at the time, they quickly transferred out. Very sad the choices Jimmy made, there could have been a better outcome had he followed through with the A/G’s 2 year restoration plan. Unfortunately when someone gets a taste of power, it’s very hard to relinquish it. Reading these recent stories shows how power has corrupted this ministry even further. However, nothing new. Lots of abusive churches out there with their miniature versions of power-play in action stroking the ego of insecure pastors.
    Blessings from Canada, fellow Canadian! :o )
    Arthur

  5. This is a GREAT website! I’ve been looking for one like this for years. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! People need to read these things and have their eyes opened to these wolves. It’s bookmarked as one of my favorites!

  6. I would just like to ask the question? Is this profitable for christians to spend their time in such things as this website discusses. I would have to say not at all but rather its unprofitable. It would be all together different if this site was warning about false teaching and pointing out biblical error but its not. its about one persons experience and from their point of few.

    • You obviously have not read the articles on this website if you believe that the site is not about pointing out Biblical error. Also, the article above is not written from one persons point of view. These things are WELL documented for those who dare to take an objective look.

      • My question is simply, what is the purpose of this site, what is the overall objective? Are you saved Mishel? Do you profess Christ as your Lord and savior and if so, do you think that this site is pleasing to the Lord? The facts of the matter is that there is no perfect human being on planet earth and there will always be fault to find somewhere? If Jesus Christ has forgiven someone of their sins, then those sins are washed away by his blood, never to brought up again.

        • AW, it’s nice to play the compassionate Christian that does not judge and gives everyone the benefit of the doubt because no one is perfect, but the bible clearly states it is our Christian prerogative to test the spirits and judge them by their fruit. So excusing corruption from ministers and ministries is not pleasing to The Lord either. He has given the qualifications of a Bishop in His word. See Paul’s letter to Timothy, and I am all for a fallen minister to receive restoration and renter the ministry but when one never receives any type of restoration but only shows rebellion and now is teaching at best serious error and more likely heresy, the those are the individuals that Paul instructed us to mark because they are devisive and self serving, if you will truly test the spirit of the swaggart ministry you will see that they are very devisive and self serving.

          • Hello John, how is Jimmy Swaggart preaching error? What do you mean? If you have an example, I would like to know so that we may discuss. I have not heard any error come out of Jimmy Swaggart Ministries and I am part of their media church and have greatly benefited from his ministry. It has helped me to grow in the Lord tremendously, namely in being set free from bondages that plagued me and robbed me of my christian experience. It was all through the preaching and teaching of the Cross of Christ and what Jesus accomplished their as spelled out in Romans Chapters 6, 7, & 8.

          • Hello AW,
            I would be more than Glad to discuss with you the error of the JSM cross teaching. First and foremost the biblical message and application of the cross is central to the Christian faith. However JSM diverges subtlety but in fact when exposed not all too subtle. The fact that you received blessing from Gods word does not validate their ministry, a hungry heart God will not turn away and his word won’t return void. JSM preaches a lot of truth and when an individual responds in faith to that truth then The Lord will work in that heart, however the entire body of teaching is not true.

            First I will use Jimmy’s own words, he maintains that all the reasons for his personal struggle was due to him not having understanding of the cross, or he will actually say that he did not have the proper knowledge. Nowhere in the Christian faith are we to seek proper knowledge to abstain victory. If this were the case then every individual that got saved should be placed in a program to indoctrinate them with proper knowledge and then they will never fail The Lord. This of course is absurd, number 1 it negates repentance. If you are a Christian living in gross sin then you don’t need knowledge you need to repent and turn to Christ and come out and not touch the unclean thi gs that you have mingled with. Paul would say how can you be joined to a harlot and Christ?

            Jimmy also says that he did not know “how to control the sinful nature” he says once he got the proper knowledge of the cross he then knew how the sinful nature was to be controlled. This is error to begin with, the cross is not an instrument of control, but in fact an instrument of death. To claim the cross controls sinful impulse as long as your faith ever remains in that object is not a program of sanctification but in fact one of suppression that will only lead to frustration and failure. The sin nature clearly is to be crucified and put to death. Romans 6:6. The problem with jimmy and his view of the cross is that he seems to feel the sinful nature, sin principle, impulse of sinful flesh or Any other terms that may be used is simply placed under “control” and the moment one “takes their faith out of the cross” then all the passions of the flesh run wild. He even uses Galations chapter 5 to support his errant theology. However if you will look at that text and only the text not his words that while sometimes insightful more times than not they simply muddle the scripture, then you will see that when Paul speaks of the works of the flesh, he is clearly speaking of the unredeemed nature. He says so by concluding they that do such SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. It can’t be anymore plain than that. Jimmy has rewritten scripture to make provision that you in fact can formication, and adulterated and all of the others listed because its only that you do not have a proper knowledge of the cross and when you get it like he got it then they will all pass away.

            This ignores the commands of Romans 6. Paul gives the believer instruction to see to it that they take advantage of the redemptive provision of the cross and make the death of the old man a reality in their life.
            These instruction in no way interfere with the doctrine of Grace for they are claims of faith that can only be made by believing that Christ death burial and resurrection are sufficient not only to forgive sin but also purge sin.
            Paul says in Romans 6:11 that we are to reckon ourselves dead, by faith know that our connection with sin is no more and we can walk in new resurrection power through the cross, he also commands the believer Let not sin reign. This implies that we are responsible to resist the power of sin to regain entrance and control in our life. How do we do this? Paul makes it clear in the 13th verse and say neither yeild yourself to unrighteousness but yeild your members unto God. Climatically in verse 14 the apostle gives the result of the believer taking hold of the claims by faith and that is that sin shall not have dominion over you for you have no further connection to it or to the law but you are supplied with the sufficient grace to live a Godly life in Christ Jesus.
            Jimmy and his teaching deny that such responsibility is incumbent upon the believer and in fact state that you simply put faith in the cross and all else is automatic. This is a damning mistake that will leave a believer wondering why they are still committing sin. It is because they have not yielding their vessell unto God, they are waiting for a magical revelation to release that from all temptation. This is a pie in the sky that will never happen, we are promised total victory but in Romans 8 Paul will state we must purposely wage war against the flesh resist its demands because we owe it nothing and depend and trust the power of the spirit to put to death the sinful deeds that our mortal body desires to carry out. This is a very brief summary but should you want to further discuss I will be glad to. I have nothing against JSM and at one time was glad to see that they were doing a good work, but upon further investigation and after many checks in my spirit about jimmy new revelation I have sadly seen that not much has changed thru the years at Jimmy Swaggart ministries.

          • Well spoken truth John from the true Word of God. This type of corruption and leadership style of control & cover-up is rampant in large churches & ministries across America. And so many needy Christians who are influenced by these charismatic charlatans will often do anything to “serve” under these big names & get into their “good graces”. Once they have been taken captive, it is too late & there is too much to lose, so they have to remain loyal unless the they truly know the One whom they should be serving in the first place. Woe be it unto modern day Christianity where too much power, authority & trust is placed in the hands of “anointed men of God” because of their persuasive powers to attract all manner of men w/enticing words of “wisdom” & promises of all kind.

          • Test the spirits and judge them by their fruits. Wow.Thanks John. I’ll do that. Oh ‘ang about. I’ve been doin’ thart! But you don’t allow others to do that when they disagree with! What a bible lover you are!

        • Best thing you could have done…..returning that Bible! I don’t understand why anyone would believe that a guy as uneducated as Swaggart would have complete understanding of ALL scripture! There are dozens of excellent translations, paraphrases and commentaries on the market done by many scholarly writers, linguists and theologians! Swaggarts teaching and writing is full of false doctrine, contradictions and misrepresentations. He is highly opinionated and arrogant! I don’t know of ANY other human being who thinks they have complete knowledge of God and His Ways, and that everyone else is wrong! It’s despicable!

        • AW – the New Testament is full of warnings of false teachers bringing false doctrines and warnings of people who pretend to be Christians who find their way into the church with ulterior motives. Here in the UK we have 15 Christian TV channels, flick through the channels and you will find that 80% of the materials are not based on sound Biblical doctrine but on something else. The Bible is not that hard to understand but here on TV you hear ideas and teachings which are not substantiated in any way. In the end people are led away from a healthy relationship with Christ towards something else like sensationalism, seeking wealth and prosperity, emotional highs, power trips, etc.

          I have been a Christian for 30 years and seen a lot in the Christian media world. I hope not to be too easily led by new ideas these guys come up with, still new believers may be easily drawn in by these groups and led on a path which is deceptive. It is important for people like Mishel who have been through the mill by these so called ministries to stand up and to testify to what they have experienced. We are not talking about the odd failure of a minister or of individuals within a ministry but of institutionalised spiritual abuse by an organisation who claims to represent the Word of God but in reality has something else on their agenda.
          Unfortunately a lot of people get sucked into this abuse and find it hard to get out with the result of unnecessary sufferings and throwing them back in their walk with God.
          The Bible admonishes us to test. Ultimately we do have the Word of God to assess what people or ministries present to us as coming from God. The easiest test is to look at the fruits of ministries and individuals as Jesus tells us in Matthew. Looking at the fruits of this ministry – they speak for themselves:
          Now just to clarify the fruits are not – crusade successes consisting of lists of people who have raised their arm on account of an altar call, or church attendance, or financial success or the size of a ministry. I dare to say that God doesn’t care about these things. Sinners repenting He cares as opposed to arms being raised in a meeting as a response to some talks:
          Here are the fruits as stated in Galatians:
          But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

          Take the measure and apply it to JSM – how much love is there?
          How much peace and joy?
          Kindness?
          Faithfulness?
          Listening to the testimonies coming from that ministry faithfulness, longsuffering, forigiveness and gentleness is not their trademark.
          And Self control????

          The works of the flesh are described in the same chapter:
          adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries,

          Looking at JSM and the testimonies which emanate from there it is safe to say that they do have issues:
          with contentions, jealousies, selfish ambitions, dissessions, heresies, envy and of course well documented transgressions with their leader who does have issues in the sexual realm.

          I still remember driving my car listening to the radio when JS second incident with a call girl was reported, with the appropriate ridicule of evangelical Christianity in the secular media.

          In the end how can anybody take these guys serious. I would suggest that it is important as the church to distance ourselves from these people and also not to share in their guilt of mis-representing the Gospel, by supporting them financially. Instead I would encourage people to give your resources to the “poor” in your community and to the local ministry who is keen to reach out to your community and to the people around you. Often there are cash strapped ministries in your community who are keen to do what they feel God wants them to do but are somewhat slowed down by the lack of resources. In the end pray about your giving and let yourself by guided by God rather than giving in to clever arguments on the TV screen manipulating you to give to them and only to them.

          As for Mishel it is important to expose failing ministries we have been warned about in almost every book in the NT. In the last times the Bible warns us of great deceptions, that even the elect might be lead astray.
          Just look around!
          Deception is happening full blow all around us in so called Christian circles. As Christians wanting to serve God we need to make sure that we are not getting sucked into this maze of deception but stay faithful Jesus as he is revealed in the Bible.

          Final word:
          AW it is important what Mishel is doing and I wish more of us would stand up against the spirtitual abuse taking place on our TV screens bringing the precious Gospel into disrepute and switching off many people from even considering the truth.

          Mishel thanks for your exposee and for taking the courage to write this down. Please be encouraged to stand up for the truth.

          As far as SBN is concerned just pray that the people who have gone astray within the organisation will return to God wholeheartedly driven by love for the truth and dedication to Christ rather than serving a mammoth institution/ministry giving them temporal rewards.

          Michael

  7. Also I would like to add that I am not advocating sinless perfection, so please don’t accuse me of such, the believer can still most certainly sin but its not a matter of taking faith out of the cross or as I have heard from JSM, ” all sin is a rejection of the cross” this too is absurd, no true Christian would reject the sacrifice of Christ and if ones does then Hebrews tells us that they have passed back to spiritual death by crucifying the son of God afresh and counting the blood of the covenant an unclean thing and doing despite the spirit of grace. This is a far cry from a believer failing The Lord in some way. This happens to every Christian from time to time and is a result of being drawn away by the lust of the flesh and a failure to yeild yourself that the adequate grace may be given. When a christin fails he or she repents and turns to Christ for greater victory. Titus 2:11-14 tells us that the Grace of God will in fact teach us to deny ungodly lust and empower us to live righteous and Godly IN THIS PRESENT WORLD. JSM basically teaches Holiness as a positional truth and not an experimental reality in the life of the believer. This theology can only lead to once saved always saved because it means that the believer need not strive for holy living because we are in Christ and as long as we have faith he simply overlooks our sin because after all we are justified. It is true Christ will always forgive the repentant heart but to claim that you can actually be committing acts of sin and still remain blameless is a total misunderstanding of justification and sanctification..

  8. John, I appreciate your response, however I strongly disagree with what you are saying that JSM teaches. I have followed the ministry now for longer than 12 years and have never once heard them teach once saved always saved. They actually teach that the believer can loose their salvation by no longer believing and I agree completely with that. As for the message of the cross teaching, they are teaching just what the apostle paul teaches in scripture, that Christs death on the cross addressed the sin nature that we all have and that in order to live a life of victory, one must maintain there faith in the finished work of christ and nothing else. Normally, if one examines their life, they will find that there faith is really in their selves, their church attendace, what they do or dont do, religious in other words. Additionally, they teach that it may take some time for a person to grasp hold of this because of all of the erroneous teaching that many chistians have digested for so long, I was an example of this. Its very simple, christ and christ alone defeated sin at calvary and the only thing that you or I can do is to put all of our trust in his finished work. I have done this by the grace God and have experienced deliverance from the bondages of darkness and real freedom in my christian walk.
    Also, I would like to add that the presense of the HOLY SPIRIT can be felt during the church services and as well, campmeeting started last night and I had the grandest time, praising and worshiping the Lord as I could sense the HOLY SPIRIT moving. Does the HOLY SPIRIT annoint error and hypocrisy, no, he does’nt.

    • AW
      I understand that you are not going to examine any of the plain facts that I put in my response that are what Paul has laid forth and in fact what JSM ignores. There is a great delusion with many that follow the swaggart ministry and I will say that whatever supposed anointing you sense may or may not be real I can not say as I am not there, but do you think the Holy Spirit is going to turn away hundreds maybe thousands of sincere hearts because the preacher is in error. Because you felt The Lord in praise and worship means nothing, it means you praised The Lord and The Lord will inhabit the praises of his people. It does not say The Lord will inhabit the praise if the preacher conducting the service is going a biblical direction. Jesus makes it clear that many who did great works in his name will in fact be cast to darkness. Matt 7:22. I personally know an I divi dual that was truly healed of cancer at a Benny Hinn crusade. Does this validate the many erroneous doctrines that Benny Hinn teachers. Absolutely not. I would like to point out that you did not scriptural lay address anything that was presented which was very surface level as far as the JSM error goes. You simply gave me several of their Mantras that people have divided faith placing it in church attendance bible reading ect, ect, however show me in scripture where it teaches divided faith. Yes it’s true many Christians are not defendant upon The Lord like they should, they do not yeild like they should but the reality is all of us are still learning to depend and yeild because none of us have perfectly submitted every area of flesh. So if a believer wants victory I will do as Paul instructed and know that redemptive lay through the death burial and resurrection of Christ victory is available and by faith I will yeild myself to Christ.

      Just because an individual has not reached a place of yielding does not mean their faith is divided. Or they ” took their faith out of the cross” Our faith is in Christ Jesus He is the crucified savior as well as the resurrected savior. So let me ask you when you sin… Have you taken your faith out of the cross? Or have you failed to yeild yourself as a living sacrifice unto God? I’ll let you decide but beware my friend seducers are loose and when the doctrines change many will not recognize. I’m not saying Jimmy is trying to lead anyone astray that only God knows but Gods word is His word.

      I will leave you with this last summer is when I knew they had gone way off track I heard the following with my own ears… One of their prominent ministers stated that a believer can be watching pornography and as long as their faith remains in the cross the sin nature is not controlling them. That is damnable error and very dangerous. I have also heard some of the youth minsters tell kids if your smoking a joint and your faith is in the cross you still have the victory.

      So let me evaluate this, they say that ” faith exclusively in the cross means perpetual victory” but you can also have faith in the cross and engage in sinful activity such as viewing pornagraphy or smoke joints. This is double speak and I would encourage you to spend some time in Gods word and search some things out, don’t be dazzled by personalities. Put the expositors away and just pick up Gods word and allow him to speak. Bless you AW and best wishes.

      • John, with all due respect, what you are saying in respect to JSM ministries is simply not true. I believe that you have misunderstand what has been said. The simple matter is that there is no perfect human being upon the earth, christians included. The scripture does not say that after salvation we will no longer sin and the sad fact is that many christians are living a substandard christian life because they are in bondage to things like cigarrettes, alchohol, pornography, and the list goes on. I was one of those christians, that love the Lord with all of my heart but was failing in an area of my life that frankly I would’nt have wanted anyone to know about, did that mean that I was’nt saved, no I was saved and thats why I knew that the bondage and sin was wrong, I just did’nt know how to walk in Victory. It was through JSM ministries that I learned about law and grace and came to the understanding that my faith for victory really was’nt in the finished work of christ but rather it was in myself, trying to do something that only the Holy Spirit can do. Lastly, and for all that might visit this site, campmeeting is going on right now at Family Worship Center. I tuned in last night and was so blessed and encouraged because the Spirit of God was moving not only in praise and worship but in the preaching. It is really what the world needs at this moment. Burdens were lifted at Calvary!! Praise God.

        • AW
          Can you scripturally define all of the JSM terminology you throw around?
          What is the sin nature? What is it to be under “law”?
          What do you mean that sin remains in the life of the believer?
          Do you mean we are capable of yielding to the lust of the flesh and committing sin? Or do you mean we sin on a regular basis in word, thought and deed? So far in our communication you have not addressed one single area of scripture and instead you give me more JSMisms that they repetitively repeat day after day.

          Is this what they have taught you in 12 years? To parrot their words about law, grace, Christ crucified, works, depending on prayer life, bible study, church attendance. Or can you validate all of their claims in the word.

          Are they leading you to be a Christian in the ” full stature of Christ” as Paul said in Ephesians 4:13, are they building your faith that you ” be no more children tossed to and fro” vs 14. Or are they speaking ” great swelling words of vanity” as Peter would say in 11 Peter 2:18. Are they promising the people liberty while they themselves are slaves to corruption vs 19.

          Could it be that they ” teach things they ought not for filthy lucre sake” Titus 1:11.
          Could it be that Jimmy is claiming an exclusive knowledge of the cross that no one else has and you can’t get anywhere else because he wants you to be obligated to buy his commentaries, study guides, books and study bibles.

          First they say no one is preaching the cross like them on TV. That’s lie number 1 Joseph prince is teaching the same error, why don’t you go research yourself and grab a copy of his latest books. If you like JSM I Garanuntee you will love it. But no if they were concerned with the kingdom and the purity of the Gospel as they claim they would at least admitt he is preaching the same thing, however that would infringe upon their market share. It’s business AW. Wake up

          • John, I really dont know where you are coming from. Where are you getting these things that your saying. Jimmy Swaggart ministries does not preach the same thing as Joseph Prince, matter of fact that have brought out the error in his teaching on their programing. As for addressing things scripturally, what exactly do I need to address scripturally. Tell me where JSM is teaching something unsciptural, you really havent given me anything concrete that is unscriptural, everything you have said thus far in relation to JSM and what they teach has not be factual, I know because I have listened to 100′s of hours of teaching and I know exactly where they stand, you have evidently misunderstood what they are teaching. What I do know, is that my relationship with the Lord is stronger today than ever and I know that Jimmy Swaggart doe’snt lift himself up or anyone in there ministry up but the Lord Jesus Christ. In a nut shell, they teach salvation by grace through JESUS Christ alone, the baptism in the HOLY SPIRIT with the evidence in speaking with other tongues as the spirit of God gives the utterance and that true victory over the sin nature is found by one keeping their faith anchored in the finished work of Christ because there is where Jesus defeated sin. Now, whats wrong with any of that, what part of that is unscriptural?

          • AW,
            First of I’m am glad that you have a close relationship with the Lord, the only reason I would take the time to write you is that I have seen the destruction that is done by JSM. I am not at all misunderstanding their teaching I have seen it in detail, read as I have stated about 70% of the expositors including study notes. I have read also the revelation of the cross study guide and seen much of their programming.

            That being said Joseph Prince absolutely does teach what they do, they may have some differences here and their but basically they are in the same vein, faith in the finished work and get grace and all is well. Joseph Prince may have taken it slightly toward the word of faith direction claiming that if your faith is in the finished work of the cross you will have no sickness, no poverty ect ect. However JSM is coming very close to this line they regularly say “there is a new house in the cross for you” ” there is a new car in the cross for you” ” there is a raise of pay in the cross for you” or since you were so pleased with camp meeting I tuned in to hear Donnie say ” there is a motorcycle in the cross for you” as he was taking up the offering. I will state that Donnie seems to be the only one that has not totally gone off the ledge with this strange theology.

            What you are stating about victory being in the cross ect ect is correct from of theological standpoint. Yes I fully believe in the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Faith and grace is correct theologically, however their application of the cross faith and Grace has gone totally haywire. They are teaching a faith that requires no personal responsibility, they have said on many occasions that if you ” take your faith out of the cross” or ” don’t know the cross as the apostle Paul presented” which of course means their way, then satan overrides your will and brings you into sin. Well first off as I have already stated you can’t take your faith in and out of the cross. I would ask you for one scripture that states you can in fact take your faith in and out of ” the object of the cross”.

            The reason they have come to this conclusion is that they feel the sin nature is “to be controlled by ever keeping the cross your object of faith.”
            This is glaringly unscriptural because Romans is clear the sin nature is to be crucified that the body of sin be destroyed. Now I understand that Jimmy adheres to reformed theology and maintains that the sin nature remains and is a actual entity that always lives inside the believer. They maintain that the believer always grapples with the sin nature. This has been the teaching of reformed theology for centuries, the root of sin always remains and is constantly threatening to rise up and they maintain that somehow God receives glory by leaving this sinful root because its their for ” disciplinary purposes”.

            You didn’t actually think Jimmy came up with all this did you, this is common reformed theology which he freely states when he got the revelation that he did not know how the sin nature was to be controlled he was reading after reformed scholar Kenneth Wiest. I will say that Wiest is certainly very knowledgable and does have good insight into the Greek language, nonetheless he is a reformed theologian so that means once saved always saved and most held the view that we just sin a little everyday.

            Loren Larson clearly adheres to this because I have heard him say that sin is always present in the believers life. Now I don’t not share this view of the sin nature but I don’t wish to argue that. My personal belief is that the “sin nature” is simply the sin principle passed thru Adam as Paul outlines in the second half of the 5 th chapter of Romans.

            The sin principle is the reign and domination of sin in the heart of man. There has been sufficient redemption through the cross for this to be crucified and removed to the degree that our desire are no longer bent to sin. This does not mean that we are incapable of sin it means we are free from sin and free to yeild ourselves to God.
            Adam had no “sin nature” and that didn’t render him incapable of sin.

            However we can differ on that and no problem, that is my view as I am more of the Wesleyan flavor than the reformed.
            But what I do wish to show is that even the reformers of old understood that sin must be resisted and we must continually yeild to God and receive his Grace.
            For it is his grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldliness that we may live righteous in this present world. See Titus chapter 2.

            The ” finished work theory” renders any responsibility of the believer as unnecessisary. As I have already stated Jimmy did not come up with the finished work theory it was first propagated by William Dunham in the days of early Pentecost. It gained quite a following because of its simplicity, place your faith in the finished work and everything will take care of itself. The problem is that if you are in sin in areas of your life this does not encourage you to truly seek deliverance it simply encourages you to keep on going and when God is ready to deal with your sin he will get to it in his time, till then just wait. It creates a passivity and lax look at sin.

            There is no formula of putting your faith in the cross. The Christian life is a life of denying the will of the fleshly pleasure and yielding to God. Jesus said in John 17:17 sanctify them by thy truth thy word is truth. The agents of sanctification are the Word and the Holy Ghost, these are available through the redemptive provision that Christ provided at Calvary. Any sanctification that does not involve the word will be a sanctification that can’t stand, the Living word will cleanse and sanctify as Paul says in Ephesians 5.
            David said a man keeps his way pure by keeping Gods word in their heart that they may not sin against him.

            So the swaggart ministry has taken Gods grace and turned it into license to sin. The comment about viewing pornagraphy with you faith in the cross was not a misunderstanding. It was states. 2 weeks ago they were teaching that repentance is not something the believer needs to worry about because repentance gets in the way of your faith in the cross.

            Just last week their theology took another interesting turn as Jimmy begin to say that the active element of faith is belief. Loren Larson has latched onto this because he truly thinks that Jimmy is an apostle and basically correct in all that he says. Loren preached this in the camp meeting Thursday morn and even made the comment its not about obedience but about belief. His text was Hebrews 11:6. Maybe Loren should have read the rest of the chapter because the whole chapter bears out the active side of faith which is obedience. It gives many examples of the faith that Gods people had and the obedience that defied all human reason.

            The Swaggart’s are preaching a Antinomian Gospel that rejects responsibility and obedience as a key part of Libving for God, its only having a “revelation of the cross”
            You don’t have to believe me because their is a great deal of importance that comes from thinking you are a chosen one for Gods last great move. This is what swaggart brainwashes you with. No such move will come. Revival comes thru sobbing hearts crying for God in brokenness and not charismatic Preachers proclaiming it to be so.

    • AW- I’m truly amazed at the “pass” you give Swaggart! Here’s a guy who while preaching against sin, claiming he was filled with the baptism of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, and was a very public figure for the gospel, was dealing with a pornography addiction, committing adultery, visiting prostitutes, and at the same time calling out his brethren and condemning them for adultery! swaggert didn’t come clean on his own. only when he was forced did he confess! and he refused to submit to the discipline of his organization, which is biblical. now would you tolerate a teacher or policeman or politician, exhibiting those behaviors, continuing in their leadership role? why should we expect any less out of a gospel minister? yes God forgives all sin. but he does not guarantee a position of leadership! swaggart is discredited! and I’m stunned at the number of people who willingly follow and defend this ministry! you must have pretty low standards and feel that character doesn’t mean much!

      • Really! Biblical discipline as the AG sees it. What are you reading? No where is the AG style of “discipline” anywhere in scripture! Did Peter “step down” after attempting to kill Malcus the High Priest’s servant? Oh please! What a vile institution is man’s attempt at church governance!

        • T.Heim says:

          Seriously? God gave instructions, through his Word, regarding church governance (Paul’s letter to Timothy, for example)! Governmental authority is established by God (secular and parochial). God works through people, through hierarchy, for the sake of order! Humans must have accountability. When a leader gets so arrogant to think that he/she no longer has to be accountable to anyone, destruction lies ahead! And people who are willing to follow ONE Delusional person who claims God talks to turning they are no longer to be questioned, are headed for the kool-aid! God gives each of us discernment, common sense, and He EXPECTS us to use them. He expects us to become educated, to learn from others, in order to become effective disciples for His Kingdom. If Swaggart had HUMBLED himself and sought spiritual help (from church leaders, and professional help (psychiatry, psychology, which are God-given medical disciplines), he may have found freedom from his porn addiction and saved himself the heartache, embarassment and disgrace he brought to himself, his family, AND the cause of Christ! His own ignorance, hubris, self-righteous delusion was his destruction!

        • T.Heim says:

          Do you, seriously, think Swaggart should be held out in public as a representative of Christ and the church? You must be isolated somewhere! Swaggart has no ministry to people outside of fundamentalism ,(actually, a very small segment of fundamentalism). He is a laughing-stock…viewed as a lunatic, a hypocrite! It doesn’t matter that He’s found forgiveness to the world! He is a stumbling block for the gospel, a deterrent. He’s an embarrassment to the church IN THE ROLE HE PLACES HIMSELF. He should be sitting in the pews, out serving in a soup kitchen, or dealing one on one with people, with a humble spirit! He who humbled HIMSELF will be exalted! Go ahead and admire the guy, hand on his every word, soak up his “truths.” But, you look foolish!
          The AG would have absolutely NO CREDIBILITY if they didn’t Derrick him. I doubt ANY legitimate or main stream organization would credential him. I don’t see anyone inviting him to speak outside of FEC. If it wasn’t for his musical talent, I doubt he would have much of a following.

        • So, its vile to ask a man that has been caught with prostitutes to sit out and seek restoration for his sinful behavior?

          • John. The ONLY response is “what approach is biblical?” Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, in scripture is a ‘step down from ministry’ taught. The biblical approach is the individual members disassociating from the ‘unrepentant’ sinning christian. You see John, a Bishop (pastor) is the oversight of their individual fellowship. Paul gave rebuke, and threatened a front on confrontation, but never ever ever usurped the authority of the pastor over his flock and exercised some Apostolic “you must now stand aside from the ministry” power. The individual members dealt with the matter by writing to Paul for advice if needed, think fornication in Corinth, but not to remove leadership and only to restore the sinning members. The problem is denominational. There is no no no no denomination in scripture. The heirarchical Jewish structure is what Christ hated, thoroughly, and is what cricified him. When denominational leadership reject scripture and follow their denominational rule book, they ALWAYS do, then they are guilty of crucifying Christ. And will be judged accordingly! The only scriptural approach is individual fellowships (churches) dealing with sin as individual churches. The early church had Paul, and men like Paul, who travelled from city to city teaching as brothers. They corrected, and were corrected, by the scripture. What bound these churches was the love of Christ, exclusively and only, through scriptural instruction. You are no doubt shocked at how harsh I have been to T Heim. I will never repent for it. The reason is an underlying reliance upon a denominational belief. I noticed in you bio the same bent. John, harsh words are just that. Think Christ rebuking the Pharisees, Sadducees and Herodians. Did Christ need to attend his heart because it was full of hatred? Sarcasm, I know. Think about it. Did Christ’s, very very harsh rebuking show his hatred of them? Why then am I judged so by T Heim? I will tell you why. T Heim, and yourself perhaps, are unscriptural when it comes to comprehending fellowship. T Heim has shown a tollerance of error in Romans, and others, yet, correctly, confronts Swaggart and his gross errors. John, love always onfronts error. John, the christian is lonely person because no one speaks well of them. Foxes have holes, birds have nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head. Beware if all men speak well of thee. The improper view of fellowship tries to be friends with all people. Jesus was friends with those who followed him. There was never a closeness with any one else. Never ever. How many people associated with Christ while he hung on the cross. Pick up your cross and follow me daily. If you do not do this, you ARE NOT my disciple. John, I pray you see what I’m saying, and thank-you for, as yet, not doing a T Heim and unloading on me. You may not agree with me on all points, however remember, “what does the scripture say?”

        • I was unable to respond to your post in response to my question so Ill respond here. First off are you claiming that scripture bears no consequence for moral failure? If that is your position then we have no common ground. I am gathering that more Likely you feel the local church should deal with the problem. If that is the case then what is your scriptural basis for this? So who in the local church should deal with the Pastor and his failure? Is this to be left up to a vote? The church council? Deacons that have been confirmed? Who is this pastor accountable to? Ultimately he is accountable to Christ as the head of the church but you believe in no accountability either doctrinally or Morally? This is not a simple process or problem to deal with, their are positives and negatives about any model of church government. Even independent churches have a model of church government. Church history will show that there was always a back and forth as to what model is best. You have your congregationalist that rejected the idea of a ruling Bishop.However many other fellowships forming looked at the problems that congregationalist encountered and decided it was better to have ruling bishops. One of the main problems with the congregational approach is the power and controlling direction eventually begins to slide toward the laity or the church council. This hinders the pastor from following the vision that he feels God has given him. The problem with ruling bishops is that sometimes bishops become to controlling and hinder Gods operation in the local church or they become corrupt and compromising. So in 2000 years of church history we have yet to find a perfect model but it seems that you feel you have it all figured out. Is the correct? Do either of these models make the people within them either saved or damned? Of course not and you seem to have an angst and a bitterness toward organization or denominational structure. Do I feel denominations are without issues? Absolutely not i have seen people badly hurt within the denominational structures and the politics that go with it. However many have been won to the kingdom of Jesus Christ through the ministry of the denominations.

          Its evident James that you think in a black and white, concrete type of way. You have dogmatically claimed that T. Helm is a wolf in sheep’s clothing and have essentially sentenced him to hell. You have slammed his as someone who is promoting ” the ecumenical lie”. Do you know what the full scope of ecumenicalism entails? IT is obvious you view this as black and white, good or evil. I don’t say this to upset you or criticize you but you do not even understand what you are so assuredly condemning. There is a positive and negative side to ecumenical outlook. On one hand there being ecumenical for the sake of false unity. In other words it has no principle no guideline, and no restraint. We take no doctrinal stand and accept heresy along with sound doctrine and join together with all and sing a merry song of unity. We accept apostates as genuine brothers and sisters with no worry about doctrinal purity. This is a negative side of being ecumenical in which I do not agree with at all.

          There is also a positive side to being ecumenicist. This is where we strive for unity with all true believers, be it baptist, methodist, pentecostal, Catholic, presbyterian or anyone else. You seem to reject all within denominations. Can you honestly tell me that their are not true believers in these denominations. Church of God, Assemblies of God, Pentecostal Holiness, Church of God in Christ, Pentecostal Church of God, Baptist, Southern Baptist, United Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, United Pentecostal Church. These are just a few and I believe that all of these and many more that I have not named are the affiliation of millions of true christians. Do I agree with every detail that they all teach? No, does that mean that none involved in these have found salvation in Jesus? Of course not. Do I agree with the structure and practice of the Catholic church? No, however I know without a shadow of a doubt there are those within the Catholic church that truly are part of the body of christ and while I don’t agree with many of their beliefs and I will not compromise my personal doctrinal convictions I also will not rail out and blast Children of God for whom Jesus gave his all. Jesus is the head of the church, not me, not you and as Jesus I want to strive for unity when at all possible. I know there are times that its not possible however James you seem very quick to write people off and dismiss them because they don’t see things from your point of view. Jesus does not save people because of their point of view, he saves all that will call upon the name of the Lord and repent of their sin and strive to live their life committed to him.

          James your attitude is not in line with the Spirit of Christ. The Samaritans were the Heretics of their day, They did not believe in Gods word properly and in fact in many ways had mixed biblical truth with their own ideas and values. John and his brother wanted to call down heaven and destroy them. Jesus said ” ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the son of man did not come to destroy mens life but to save them.” In acts 8 John changed by the Love of God and full of His Holy Spirit and went and laid hands on these same heretical Samaritans and prayed that they receive the Holy Ghost. I wold just encourage you that Jesus has redemption in his eyes and not Judgment. He definitely has to pour out Judgment at times but Redemption is his purpose. So just maybe some of these people that you are so quick to slam will one day be your brother or sister in the Lord so be careful who you condemn and who you vow to never repent for condemning.

          • Reject the unfruitful works of darkness and reprove them. Jesus did not set up a denomination. Yes I am black and white where scripture teaches this and I will not, ever, be denominational. It is a false arguement to assert that there is no perfect church governance model. The problem is, clearly, that God gives direction in his church still, as in the original church post resurrection, or he doesn’t. Do you interpret scripture literally where a literal interpretation is possible or just use whatever is between your ears or what others have taught you. To question if I believe there is no moral responsibility relating isa little bemusing. It is patently clear from that assertion that you believe there is no morality outside of established denominations. Utter folly. Tell me. What denomination did Jesus found. There is no diversity in christianity. Just christianity. There certainly is diversity in doctrine, however what makes a believer is non-negotiable. To include Romish superstition as a part of christianity is sin. You obviously do not know anything of Romish belief. To overlook the agregious cultic practices of the whore of Rome yet criticize me for a ‘narrow’ view is straining at gnats, and swallowing camels. Rome does not teach biblical salvation. Read: ROME DOES NOT TEACH BIBLICAL SALVATION!!! You confuse individual Roman Catholic people with the Popish Roman system. I condemn the Roman Catholic faith. Roman Catholic people must work out their salvation with fear and trembling, as the scripture teaches. It is by grace through faith, and not of yourselves, but the gift of God. Rome teaches that it is the sin of presumption to believe faith saves. That is what Roman Catholics are taught! Roman Catholics cannot be saved while believing Roman Catholic doctrine. THEY CANNOT BE SAVED WHILE STAYING IN THE ROMAN CHURCH. If they are saved, if they have true believing faith, Rome says they have sinned and are damned! I love the people, I hate the system. I HATE ALL FALSE WAYS. John, harsh words, I know. I repent not from them. As for biblical proof of church discipline, I am on my smart phone and cannot jump from this browser to my bible programme to double check so I’ll do the unforgivable and take from memory. I am out and do not have access to a bible. Yes I vehemently reject any system of man’s discipline. Yes all discipline are matters for the local church only. Question: Would you at all stay in a fellowship with an unrepentant pastor? Ok. Then how is he dealt with. Like Scottish Presbyterianism began as, the scripture teaches a fellowship of fellowships. Teachers of ability can bless other fellowships with ministry however the emphasis is always biblical doctrine. That is the only light binding all believers. Paul, Apollas, Cephas, Aquila and Precilla, Luke, etc were all accepted teachers who travelled between various cities to minister. Paul, as apostle, was perhaps respected above many of his peers, but only because he never lorded over his brethren. He was servant of all, as Christ was. This was the model initially of the Presbyterians in Scotland when under the ban of Rome when the numbers were thinned continually through murder, imprisonment and starvation. Persecution is the refiners fire. That model was perhaps the closest, historically, to the biblical model that I have seen. What occurred later was a denomination caused by growth. Instead of independant churches, submitted to each other through love, people held to the name presbyterian, not christian. The problem was perhaps negligible to begin with however over decades believers were identifying as presbyterians, not christians. They would say “I presbyterian” and not “I’m a christian” . Discipline was dealt with locally, and by constant pastoral visits by travelling minsters pastors were dealt with. If they did not repent, the whole church rejected him. Simple. More painful than an outsider just removing him, but it is biblical. 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 3. Your response was lengthy and I can’t recall all your points, so I hope that covers most of it. As for condemning T Heim, not at all. The error I see I comdemn, as for the person, I’ll leave all judgements to God. My feeling of a Jesuitical influence, I hold to. Ultimately, God will judge.

          • Thank you so much! Excellent response(s)! I read your response to James as well. I agree with you completely regarding the peaks and pitfalls of “ecumenical” and on Church governance. I think people forget that the Bible doesn’t spell out everything, and not everything in the Bible is “prescriptive!” Some is just descriptive.

            I agree strongly with your last paragraph on sinning after salvation. I believe as we grow in the Lord, He reveals areas of our lives that are problematic/sinful and, as we surrender our will, we are changed, perfected, become more Christ-like. I think where many go wrong is the focus on “acts of sin” as in vices, moral/character failure, etc. But, becoming more Christ-like not only involves abstaining from sinful acts, but “acting” more like Christ…less selfishness, more giving, more self-sacrifice, less wasting our time on “things below” rather than on the Kindgom of God, and also, fully enjoying the beauty of life, God and His Creation. The Arminian theologian I mentioned earlier (my relative) recently wrote a multi-part blog series on “The Christian World-view” (including a: is there such a thing? b: if so, what is it? c: how does it differ with “confession of faith” etc). It was very interesting. One of the bullet points is: “the glory of God is the human fully alive!” I believe God’s desire is for us to exist is this perfect state: sinless, disease free, healthy and whole in mind, body, spirit, and in vibrant, unbroken, loving fellowship with God, enjoying Him completely! This relationship begins when we say Yes! to Jesus, and culminates at the resurrection, continuing for eternity! So, our “walk” with Christ on earth is the beginning of our eternal life, as we are changed from “glory to glory.” It’s not just about “not sinning.” It’s loving people like Jesus loved them…which I could argue is more difficult than abstaining from sin! Fundamentalists (like the Swaggarts) justify their “legalism” with the verse “Love not the world, neither the things of the world……” I’m sure you know how it goes. Their definition of the “world” is vices e.g. drinking alcohol, smoking, nightclubs, casinos, movie theaters, dances, etc. I think God meant loving the “values” of the world, e.g. power, greed, wealth, lust, pride, as satan is the prince of this world. We are to “value” the “kingdom of God” more than we value our personal “kingdom’ in this world. I think it’s sinful to strive after money and wealth, power, recognition, influence over people under the “cover” of preaching the gospel! I think it’s as sinful to eat poorly, not exercise, over exercise, fail to rest properly, etc, as it is to abuse alcohol or drugs, etc. I think it’s sinful to be MORE religiously diligent about church “attendance” than it is to be faithful to fulfilling your obligations to your family, or seeing that the needs of people around you are met, etc. In my experience, the less I focus on myself, the more time I have to “look for” and/or become aware of needs around me, and when I’m involved with meeting those needs, I have less time to get “involved” with sinful endeavors. The Holy Spirit within us guides us in the right “kingdom” direction. He empowers, provides wisdom, comforts, etc. Scripture tells us that we’ve been given the “armor of God,” and if we put it on, we can defeat what Satan brings against us. God has provided the “tools.” These are the tangible things that I wish Swaggart et al would preach/teach about, instead of saying “the cross, the cross, the cross! I wonder who they think their audience is? They try to sound like they are teaching a seminary class on a deep, theological topic. Swaggart said such on yesterday’s program, claiming “the message of the cross is so deep that it goes over the head of most pastors, most christians.” That’s why they had to keep saying it over and over, every day, until people “get it!” (whatever “IT” is). Anyway, enough on that…

            I would like to go back to your comments on adultery / homosexuality. The White’s are just one perfect example of un-Biblical remarriages and divorces! As you are probably aware, there are some theologians/pastors who don’t believe that Jesus was giving an “exception” for divorce, defining that reason as unfaithfulness of one partner. That “exception” only appears in one account (Matthew 19). Some this that the Greek word “porneia” can mean sexual immorality prior to the marriage, or during the betrothal period (the wife turns out not to be a virgin, so married under false pretenses). It does seem strange that Jesus would give an “excuse” for divorce, when, based on his teachings on forgiveness, redemption and grace, and God’s “hate” of divorce, it would be required (especially if both partners are christians) to forgive and reconcile (which is the case in many circumstances)! Violence, abuse would be much more “reasonable” reasons for a divorce “exception.” And the most common teaching that I’m aware of concerning Paul’s passage in Corinthians is that he was addressing the issue of couples who were already married before they became a Christian. The church was thinking that the believing spouse should divorce the unbelieving spouse to prevent being “unequally yoked.” Paul said no, if the unbelieving spouse wants to stay married, they should stay married. So, bottom line, the Bible is against divorce, and they may/may not be any exceptions. (The truth is, most marriages end for reasons other than adultery). However, if a divorce allowed, the couple is NOT released from the vows. Therefore, remarriage is out of the question (unless you remarry your spouse). Which means celibacy for life, or until one spouse dies! If Bible-believing Christians really believed this, don’t you think the end result would be fewer divorces? or perhaps more careful consideration with selecting a spouse? Would the marital problems be considered so horrible, if the individuals were facing life-long celibacy? I think that when the divorce rate among CHRISTIANS is no different than the rest of the population, we’re demonstrating just how “seriously” we actually take the Word of God. We have demonstrated that we are going to do what we want to do (hardness of heart), and even if by remarriage we commit adultery, well, God forgives, right? Yes He does! I certainly understand that “two wrongs don’t make a right.” Both homosexuality and adultery are sin. BUT, you appear to believe that one can be forgiven and one cannot. It appears that you believe that homosexual sin is “worse” than heterosexual sin. You said that we have to “leave it in the hands of the Lord.” So, if we don’t know what the Lord thinks of people living in adultery, how can we say we know what the Lord thinks of people living in a same-sex relationship? It is definitely “up to the Lord” so to speak, but I believe our doctrines, our behavior toward sinners has to be consistent! I mean, there is more to a homosexual couple’s relationship than just sex! Medical science can’t currently tell us exactly why /how this deviation occurs. There is much more going on here than just a “simple choice.” People are choosing a same-sex relationship because they are somehow being driven to it! When we think about our heterosexual desires, and how “natural” they are, isn’t it possible that homosexuals have this same “natural desire?’ We can’t get into each other’s heads to know what it’s like for the other, and sexuality is a very basic, and emotionally charged issue. I have personally been touched by divorce, remarriage and homosexuality within the lives of close family members. We are Christians, and know what the Bible teaches. But we also know and see how the “body of Christ” is dealing with these issues in practical terms. And there is a very clear message….there is “forgiveness, tolerance, grace and acceptance for adultery (heterosexual sin), but not for homosexual sin! Is it any wonder why the church has no credibility on this issue? The world doesn’t respect the church and what it has to say about marriage, because of the lack of respect we have for “God’s design” for marriage! It looks like we just don’t like homosexuals! I really believe that the “church” is being confronted by our own lax behavior. I have lived, worked and had friendships with many homosexuals. One couple has been together for 30+ years! They are sweet, decent, loving, caring, interesting people. Most of them aren’t believers, but they’re not likely to become believers when they see how hostile the church is toward their lifestyle, but how tolerant the church is toward heterosexual adulterers! And I can’t help but think that, if they did accept Christ, would Christ make them break up a 30 year relationship in order to “stop sinning?” If we think so, then the same would have to apply to an adulterous, 30 year heterosexual marriage. Otherwise, that is a double standard…hypocrisy…and wrong, in my opinion! If I can have a relationship with Jesus Christ, find forgiveness, be blessed, serve in the church, all as a remarried, divorced person, I can’t imagine that cannot be true for my family members who love God and are burdened with same-sex attraction. I’m not denying that a person with same-sex attraction cannot be “healed” or changed, and I think that a serious Christian (fully desiring to do the Will of God and follow Christ) would/should choose that path. It’s clear some of them do, but after years of “struggling,” will give up and enter a homosexual relationship. But, those who don’t, shouldn’t they be extended “grace” and “understanding” just like a heterosexual divorced person who cannot see themselves living without companionship and sex for the rest of their lives?

            As you said to James, life isn’t “black and white!” It’s messy! I know it easy, and many of us desire to live by absolute, concrete truth! It’s easy to say “that’s right, that’s wrong.” But, we’re dealing with imperfection, with complex human beings, with a fallen and sinful world, with people who have wide variations in weaknesses and abilities. The answers aren’t easy. But, I do know that, as Christians, we are to deal with everything in a loving, compassionate, understanding way, always considering how WE would like to be treated! I don’t expect you to have an “answer!” But, ever since I read the article about Power’s comments (actually, much further back than that…when it came to my attention that a dear loved one was gay), I have really been looking for answers, and I really didn’t like what I saw coming through the comments of “Christians” on that blog! This is a “hot” topic right now in the church, and I think we have dealt with it poorly.

            I don’t know what you think of Rick Joyner and Morningstar ministries (I think he’s a false prophet), but he has an association with a “faith healer/revivalist” named Todd Bentley. Bentley recently divorced his wife (they have 2 children), and married an “intern” from his ministry. This caused an uproar in the church (for which I’m grateful…at least some still hold to Biblical principles). Joyner posted a series of videos on his website documenting the “restoration process of Todd Bentley.” It’s totally ridiculous….Joyner and Bentley go on and on about how God hates divorce, THEY hate divorce, etc. Joyner even claims that “GOD IS DIVORCED.” (I guess because He “divorced” Israel). He claims that God and Israel will be “remarried” in the future, so somehow that’s how divorce and remarriage is justified! APOSTATE! Anyway, now that they went through these “hours and hours” of rehashing all the reasons for why he divorced (still didn’t justify the remarriage part), they said he’s “restored” and ready to minister again…along with the new, younger wife! I find it despicable! At the same time, of course, they speak out AGAINST gay marriage! I’ve seen videos of Bentley’s “miracle” revivals! They are crazy! In one, his wife claims she had a dream/vision where Oral Roberts came and spoke to her and prophetically revealed some things to her (totally anti-Biblical). In the middle of her story, she starts rapidly twisting her head back and forth, whipping her long hair back and forth violently! She gave no explanation why that happened. She kept going on with her story, then would start with the head/neck whipping thing….it looked like demon possession! Anyway, they are still going from city to city in the US holding their “revivals!” I guess he’s pretty well-known in “pentecostal” circles.

            I look forward to hearing from you whenever you have time. By the way, are you a pastor or seminary professor or teacher of some sort? You seem to be quite knowledgeable about Biblical issues. I’m a lay person, involved with the worship team and Bible studies etc. at my church. And I’m surrounded by theologians & pastors in my personal life! God Bless!

          • 2 Peter 1:3 God’s divine power allows for all life and godliness. There is nothing outside of God’s word, pertaining to a believers life and his conduct. There is no wisdom for a believer outside of God’s word. Ever.

          • 2 Peter 1:3 God’s divine power allows for all life and godliness. There is nothing outside of God’s word, pertaining to a believers life and his conduct. There is no wisdom for a believer outside of God’s word. Ever.

            But, there aren’t “specifics” on everything. The Bible gives us truth about God (not everything about God), conduct, redemption and reconciliation with God, but the “details” must be worked out. We aren’t in “Biblical Times” historically, technologically or scientifically. New knowledge, new questions must be dealt with and reconciled with the truth of scripture. Believers today must be much more educated in order to communicate the gospel message in a relevant and credible way. We are 2000 years past the “budding” church of Paul and the apostles! The church has triumphed and failed at various times. False teachers abound in our day! We now have a 2000 year history, experiences, and a body of knowledge developed by the great minds of godly men and women. One cannot be “wise” if one doesn’t learn from the past, and isn’t up to date with current knowledge. There is nothing in scripture that prohibits “institutions!” One of my husband’s degrees is in sociology. He is always evaluating the way human organizations, societies and cultures develop. It’s a natural process! Human beings are fallible, even if they are educated and wise. Jesus describes his church as a BODY, one being composed of many parts. However, a body has a “command center.” It is organized, and there is a hierarchy. Organizations/denominations aren’t good or bad in of themselves. It’s the people involved that determines that. Successful organizations have structures that promote a healthy environment. Every denominational or ministerial implosion can always be traced back to human failure and a lack of proper protective procedures. Why do you think God gave us such phenomenal brains, if He didn’t intend for us to use them for His Kingdom? The Bible is the blueprint! We build the church! The body doesn’t all look the same, function the same. And, bodies evolve. Your dogmatic musings don’t allow for any of that God might as well have created robots built exactly the same. That appears to be your view of the church. I have no idea what your background is…if you’re involved in a church, have pastoral experience, a lay person. The Catholic church is not the only church with false / questionable doctrines! Yet, your anger seems to be directly aimed at that institution alone! I have to assume that you feel you’ve been personally hurt in some way by the Catholic church. The Bible clearly teaches not to let “the sun go down” on your wrath. We are also to have a spirit of forgiveness and to release resentment. If you view the Catholic church as an enemy, the Bible teaches you are to pray for your enemies. So, I hope you will be continually in prayer for Catholics, that God will pour His Love into your heart for them, and that you will be free from this bondage of anger and hatred! I have to do that with people like the Swaggarts. I could easily let this become personal, because I have had anger and resentment toward the hurts I experienced by the church of my childhood (which is like a carbon copy of FWC)! But, that’s not healthy! I have gone to the Swaggarts directly with my concerns, and they will not receive any correction, they are not open to the possibility that they are in error. So, the only thing left is to warn others whenever and wherever I can. As I’ve said before, I hope you can find some peace.

          • What dribble. God’s word is complete pertaining to what is needed to live godly lives in all circumstance. Your, and John’s, unbelief is astounding. You do not believe God’s word contains all of the answers required for of time. Technology, more questions are irrelevant. Solomon said, “there is nothing new under the sun”. You would however, have to trust God in interpreting that. Your unbelief is fed by your denominational affiliation, which of course promotes and uses psychology to ‘understand’ man and his malady. Well sin is sin, and it never changes. Oh poor me. I’m so unsophisticated. I must be from the south. I am such a poor christian because I trust God’s revealed truth as expressed exclusively in his word, rejecting man’s demonic wisdom. I guess Christ was incomplete when he hung on the cross, he needs modern ‘christian’ to fill in his gaps. I guess “it is finished” as some of Christ’s last words were only valid when the apostles were still alive. Now I understand your willingness to accept Rome and its continual “revelations” through the centuries. Mormons are christian too! Jw’s? Misunderstood! Oh let’s play happy families as we all (less little ‘ole intollerant me of course) march happily through them gates ‘o pearl to the lervin’ arms ‘o Jaysus! It’s hard work, bein’ from ther south an all. I is a juss trussin’ in dem lervin’ words o’ Jaysus an neva beleevin’ in dem words ‘o man! Phew! No no no. Those early Presbyterians were obviously hicks, maybe even rednecks when proclaiming sola scriptura!!! Lord Jesus, deliver your church from fickle deniers and judge righteous judgement I pray, in Jesus name!!!

          • James,
            I can’t determine whether you are willfully ignorant, or just like to argue. So, this is my final response to you.
            You show extreme intellectual dishonesty to try to take what I said and apply it to “the atonement.” The price for redemption is paid, that work is complete. The Bible doesn’t address modern biotechnology, such as in-vitro fertilization, cloning, surrogacy arrangements, abortion, etc. These things have moral implications where there is no specific biblical direction. Medical science, psychology, discoveries in the universe, etc. are constantly presenting new evidence that causes the church to occasionally adjust doctrine. It’s clear that the earth is not 6000 years old, that creation was not 7 literal days, etc. None of these things make the Bible untrue, but scientific facts reveal GOD (and I mean “facts” NOT scientific theory). So, we have to adjust our perspective based on new information. Orthodox doctrine doesn’t change, however…God is triune, Jesus, the incarnation, born of a virgin, Jesus resurrection, Jesus return to earth, eternal life, etc. So, yes, education is extremely crucial to authentic Christianity, and so is examined faith. If you refuse to embrace reason, critical thinking, you are in danger of being misled. Close-mindedness is the direct pathway to error. You will never gain respect, or have any credibility to share to the gospel with the attitude you have. You have no credibility with me, and you clearly aren’t interested in dialogue, which is the hallmark of all who think they know everything and can’t be wrong. Right at this moment, I’m listening to Donnie Swaggart screeching (preaching) saying “we don’t need 12-step, or AA, or your effeminate psychologists, you can take your AA programs and your effeminate psychologists and stick them where the sun don’t shine.” That is a direct quote! Now, that is ugly, arrogant ignorance, and bigotry! He caught himself a few minutes later and said, “did I really say that?” And then he went on…”It’s amazing what I’ll say under the ANNOINTING!” These people are a disgrace! Today, the Frances & Friends program was a rerun–Jimmy was the “guest” and it was 2 hours of the most ignorant, stupid, ridiculous, false doctrine, misinterpreted scripture, self-promoting braggadocious program yet! I don’t think there was one truthful, accurate or biblical thing said the entire 2 hour period! If I didn’t know better, I would think their programming is some kind of satirical reality TV show! They remind me of the “honey Boo Boo” reality show (the little girl was cute and sweet, but the rest of them fit the “southern” hick stereotype). The point is, the road to destruction is paved with spiritual pride, ignorance, hubris, arrogance, and a “know-it-all” attitude! Get off that road.

          • You love a lie and hate the truth. No wonder you have such an idiotic view on divorce. If there was not a literal seven days of creation, and we are learning more everytime a new discovery comes along the earth is not, approximately six thousand years old then God is LIAR. You serve another Jesus, another gospel. Matthew 19, which you quoted with your brother John, gives clear teaching on divorce. One problem. Jesus said, as it was in the beginning. You know, creation. That allegory you despise, looking benevelantly down upon as not literal. There are dozens of Psalms referring to “the God of creation”. Obviously God couldn’t have known how “wise” man would become like that vile God hater Hawking, and cause doubt to believers causing them to cast of their faith. You are ignorant one. Woe unto you when all men speak well of thee. So much for “you’ll never have credibility!” Integrity before God is all I, and faithful believers, will ever care for! Did Jesus back down from a defence of truth (arguement in your lexicon), nope. What about Paul? Did he try to win ‘em by bein’ like ‘em? Nope! A bit different from your foolishness! I love, read love, defending God’s word. The greatest enemies of God’s are those who question the veracity, validity of his word. You say, like your god, “hath God said?” I will comment continuously on your comments, directed at me or not, from this time forth. Good day, heretic!

          • You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension! Did I say the Word of God isn’t true? Did I say God is not the creator? Scripture has supreme authority. Scripture must be INTERPRETED! You remind me of the guy who was convinced he is dead. He goes to the psychiatrist who tries everything to convince him he is not dead. Finally, the shrink asks, “Do dead men bleed?” The guy agrees that dead men don’t bleed. So the shrink takes out a knife and pricks the guy’s finger. The guy replies, “What do you know, dead men DO bleed!!”

            The reality of the universe proves that the universe was NOT created in 7 literal 24-hour days! Period! The facts are that light travels at 186,262 miles per second. From that, distances can be determined, and time can be measured. Indisputable scientific fact! The “light-year” measures how far light travels in a year. That fact alone tells you that the earth isn’t 6000 years old, as the closest star to our sun is trillions of light-year’s away! You do recall, don’t you, that historically, humans thought the earth was flat. The new information that the earth was round was a huge disruption in Christian doctrine. Do you have any science or history background? Perhaps you should do some reading.

            A good book to start is one by Robert Jeffress, called “How can I Know?” He quotes Dr. Charles Ryrie’s definition of “inerrancy,” The Bible tells the truth, and truth can, and does include “approximations, free quotations, language of appearances, and different accounts of the same even, as long as those do not contradict.” So, in answer to your question, Is God a Liar? No! So, if God doesn’t lie, if His Word is true, and reality tells us that the universe is trillions of years old, then perhaps the problem is YOU, and your misunderstanding of scripture! You referred to the Genesis account as an “allegory.” You are correct! So, do you understand what an allegory is?

            When we create a “God of our understanding,” WE create “another Jesus!” Basically, it’s idolatry! As the saying goes, “God created man in His own image, and ever since, man has been attempting to return the favor!”

            I hope you learn something by reading the words of others, but I’m not holding my breath, as you seem as hard-hearted and hard-headed as a slab of granite.

          • Firstly, you did respond when you said you wouldn’t. Small point. As for comprehension, I did state, to John I believe, that I’m on a smart phone and haven’t the capacity to look back at what was written. I don’t know why however that’s the way the browser functions. Another small point. I also used the term allegory in mockery of you, cleaf if read with some ‘comprehension’ ! Two small points. I find it interesting you ondemn me in harshness yet you are highly critical of me being harsh. Another small point.I’m sure there are more points to make, however I can’t cross-referrence as I stated. I’ll add more as I re-read your post.

          • James,
            My prayer for you is that God will bless you with a fresh revelation of His mercy, grace and love, that He will help you to know how to allow His agape love to flow through you, that the wisdom of the scriptures will open up in a fresh, clear way, and that you will fulfill the purpose in His Kingdom for which you were called. This is my prayer not only for you, but for myself and all who read these words! Amen!

          • Thank-you T Heim. I will accept that prayer. I remember a time somewhere about 1997 when I was in a denomination temple when after service, in front of about 200 people, I went forward for prayer. You see, the leadership were rather controlling and I had started to shrink back from their prying advances upon myself, and my family. I had enquired at the scriptural authority they claimed which had irritated some higher up. Anyway, as I stood there, a strange thing took place. Instead of asking me for what I wanted prayer, this man who was one of the higher ups, launched into a rebuking type prayer. I’m sure you know the type. Telling God, not beseeching him. I stayed calm and respectfully closed my eyes, and he prayed something similar to your stated words in your post. It caused a stir because only one was praying and it wasn’t hushed. Rather voluminous you might say. As the prayer progressed it became obvious that this man was angry at me, and was only trying to rebuke/embarrass me infront of my fellows. Strangely I liked what he was saying, because the words were so similar to what I had always prayed post conversion. I even liked it, knowing God would honour my faith, and raised my hands and started quietly saying amen, yes Lord, humble me, grow me, mature me, teach me your ways, etc. My affirmation of his prayer grew louder and more definate which totally bamboozled my attackers within the temple to the point they totally shut up shortly there after. You see, I’m not affraid of God, or his word. He will not hurt me to destroy me nor curse me because of the alterior motives of those who hide behind feigned humility. I think you have point.

          • It is quite amusing to see how you intentionally confuse me with the heretical Swaggarts et al. Is it your way (the only pathway to truth and enlightenment) versus Swaggart and ilk like him? Could there be another option? Despise error, Swaggart’s and yours, and believe sola scriptura. I can’t help others and what they say. I don’t particularly care either. Many, including Swaggart and miriads like him through the millenia, have claimed the same. I’m not like him. Some beliefs are obviously similar. I believe that God is three in one, 1 John 5:7. Apparently so does Rome. Am I joined to Rome because of superficial similarity. Elephants have ears, I have ears – ergo: I’m an elephant! This is your logic. You despise Swaggart and his error, yet listen regularly to his erroroneous teaching? “Take heed what you here” Christ said. You, praytell, are the one who loves to argue!

          • James,
            I meant to leave a link with you. Dr. Olson is a personal friend. His recent post outlines a very wise methodology to be used by the church in order to come to decisions concerning issues that confront the church today. This addresses much of what I have been trying to convey to you. Perhaps it will be helpful for you.
            {I edited out the address- for the most part I do not allow links unless it is something I personally approve of and I will have to admit that in this case I do not}

          • Name dropping has never impressed me. As for that I too can drop a name. It may not mean much to you however. How’s Jesus The Christ. Yeh, I know him. He knows me. Anyway, as for methodology, that taught by men can certainly been useful but generally to follow all of a man’s methodology is to follow a man and his logic. God gave me a mind. The scripture renews it. Where there is error, God through his spirit corrects it. This is the difference beyween you Father Heim, and I. You revere men. I prefer to fellowship with them. The reverence I give is as a brother loving them as fellow labourers. All I owe anyone as a believer, is love. There is no greater gift to give because it incorporates my death in their place as Christ did for me. I cannot know someone as brother unless I speak with them. Associate with them. Fellowship with them. I learnt this fact when as a follower of Swaggly I gave him love as a brother yet ultimately realized I didn’t know him personally. He is at best now, an enigma. I see in scripture the same idea. The brethren that aren’t known you are prepared to love, yet you love them as yourself. I correct myself via the word of God, through the agency of the Spirit of God. I offer the same criticisms of the brethren as myself. There is no mote in your eye I remove, that the beam thereof in my eye hasn’t already been removed. You treat me, and others I might add, as uncouth yokels. My first criticism of you was correcting this bigotry in you, you may remember. All from the South, as Swaggart, aren’t well educated, you claimed. Our tate-au-tate stemmed from that. Your response was rather vitriolic to say the least. Anyway. Your turn.

          • I must say I’m a little confused after re-reading your post. You leave me a link to a helpful methodology of scriptural interpretation yet you remove the link because it is something you don’t agree with? Who’s methodology is faulty again?

          • James, I didn’t remove the link. If it has been removed, it was likely done by the blog administrator, which is her prerogative, as this site belongs to her.

  9. John,
    I dont know any other way to say it but you really do not know what you are talking about. None of what you are accusing the Swaggarts of is true, I am a member of their church and hold them in very high regard. The attitude that you are ascribing to Jimmy Swaggart is simply not true, much of what you have said is really taken out of context. For example, what you mentioned about there being a motorcycle in the cross, all that they are saying is that at Calvary, Jesus made it possible for God to Bless us and meet our needs and that is only made possible through what Christ did at the cross. If you will listen to all that is said, they always emphasize that its God who decides how he blesses one, whether that is monetarily, materially, spiritually, or physically. Also, in reference to addressing things that you have said scripturally, you have not really given me anything that was accurate in respect to what they teach, you have sort of added a twist to it and I know that its not true because as I have mentioned I am part of the church and ardently study the word of God with them and for myself personally, so I know what they teach. Lastly, and I know that you dont know me so really you just have to take it for what I am telling you know. Since sitting under the ministry of Jimmy Swaggart, I have found victory over the bondages of sin that plagued my life, I have a regular pray life, and I love the word of God more today than ever before. Is’nt that a good thing? So, for me this site is really not proclaiming the truth about JImmy Swaggart ministries, I dont think the Lord would be very pleased by this site at all. Also, I got here through Apostacy Watch which also has a section in regards to Brother Swaggarts failures in the past. Why would a site do that, especially something that was so long ago and what if Jimmy Swaggart has asked the Lord to forgive him for that and its underneath the blood now. Dont you think the Lord is awfully displeased with someone posting that hurtful information.

    • AW
      I did not assume that we would agree but hopefully I have at least given you things to think about and look into on your own. One simple thing that you could address is giving me one scripture that states believers can in fact place their faith in and out of the cross, in the cross victory, out of the cross “sin nature” runs wild. This isn’t found in Gods word. As to me taking things out of context, I was not because telling people that ” a new house, car, raise in pay, motorcycle” is in the cross is ridiculous, I don’t care what the context is, yes through redemption we have spiritual blessings and God will meet out material needs, nowhere are we promised new houses, cars or better Jobs. Quite contrary Jews in the early church lost their houses, Jobs and postions in the community for the cause of Christ. Thankfully that has not happened in America, but we don’t have an American Gospel or and African gospel or a Chinese Gospel, their is one Gospel and I assure knowing some American preachers that have traveled to china and preached in their underground churches those believers are not finding raises in pay, new houses or cars in the cross, what they have found is redemption for their soul and eternal life and some find themselves in prison and even killed. The Swaggart’s Gospel is a very powerless Gospel that can’t and won’t stand against persecution. Jimmy also states that Christian suffering has been totally misunderstood by the church and their is no suffering( don’t believe me, think I’m taking out of context then look at his Philippians commentary 3:10 and you will see) and all the suffering has been done by Christ and for us its just blessing, blessing, blessing. Well that sounds nice but if your going to truly live for Christ even in America their will be times of suffering, Paul said all that live Godly in Christ suffer persecution. Peter said he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. No we are not saved and sanctified by any physical suffering but at times we suffer people speaking ill of us and speaking lies about us, this no doubt is suffering to the flesh, because the flesh wants to get even. However Peter said its better to suffer for well doing than for evil doing.

      You don’t have to research reformed theology, finished work doctrine or any of the other things I have brought to your attention that is up to you, but when you have those small checks in your spirit about the swaggart organization and their money making operations you need to listen to them.

      JSM truly grieves me, they are so exalted in Pride thinking they are the only ones with the ” right message” that the last great move of God will take place through their TV cameras and that the church has been in darkness concerning sanctification until Jimmy. It is sad, because Pride and arrogance is suffocating that ministry once again. As I have said before not much has changed since the 80s.

      Now as far as bringing up his past sin, I have never done that nor would I, the only relevant issue I would take with his past is that it should cause believers to be very decirning with his present. A man who could call his brother a cancer in front of the whole nation just to find out months later that he was living in gross sin, is a man whose arrogance and power had blinded and mamed him much like Sampson of old. Jimmy is no doubt called of God and a very gifted man, but in my opinion it seems his self serving tactics that sunk his the first time have not really left him but have in fact resurphaced now that he has a large audience once again. It just seems jimmy has never really though anybody had it quite like him

      • John, lets be fair. You are saying that they are proclaiming that they are the only ones with the right message and thats simply not true. There statement is that they are not aware of anyone with a platform such as JSM, a worldwide ministry, is preaching the cross, for not only salvation, but as the means for sanctification. I happen to agree with that statement, because the other major christian network, TBN, is just simply full of error and to be honest, how any christian can watch what is promoted on that network without feeling a check in there spirit, I can not understand. It truly is all about money, and nothing is really preached that will truly help people. That network grieves me. Nevertheless, JSM never comes off as trying to say that they are the only ones with the truth, that attitude is not there. I would ask you to take a month and watch the telecast with an open and sincere heart and if after that month you still feel the same way, then ok, but give them a chance. No matter what anyone says, as for me and what I have struggled with as a christian and not getting victory over particular sins in my life, that is a life of pure misery and JSM ministies has helped me see and know that victory can only come through calvary. Now, as for scripture, Romans 5:1 states that we are justified by faith in JESUS. I maintain, that we are to keep our faith anchored in the finished work of christ at all times for the rest of our christian experience and that it is easy, if one does’nt have a proper understanding of calvary, meaning that what JESUS did was a legal work, which gives the HOLY SPIRIT the lattitude to help us, then its easy for that faith to all of the sudden begin to take a subtle shift into our works, i.e., bible reading, church attendance, and so on. I know that this is true because it happened to me and I really did’nt realize that I was doing it, but the results are failure. Also, Galations 2:20, & 21, states that we are crucified with Christ and if righteousness comes by the law (our works), then Christ died in vain. The central theme of the whole bible is JESUS Christ and him crucified, and that is the message of the cross. The results of that preaching has led me into a life of victory over bondages that hurt my christian walk tremendously and if they were’nt stopped would have wrecked my entire family and the whole time that i was going through those things, i was fighting and loosing and really depending upon my own will power to get the victory but it always ended into defeat, until I looked at Calvary and the Lord helped me to see that Jesus defeated sin, Romans 6:14, Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law, but grace, then I found the victory and begin to experience the abundant life that Christ died so that we may have. Anyway, as I stated before, sites like this I believe our very displeasing to the Lord, there is really a bias in much of what I have read and things are taken out of context, so I dont really get it. It also, does’nt come off as very christian either, why would I site go through other peoples account of particular situations, unless a person was actually there, none of that can really be substantiated.

        • I lived in Baton rouge several years, attended the family worship center, paid tithes there and regularly gave to their sharathon, I have read the expositors study bible almost cover to cover with the exception of a few books, I have known many people that work for the Swaggarts and still know many people at their church.

          The basic premise of Grace and not merit is absolutely correct, however I believe the bible will bear out that victory comes in submission and presenting yourself to christ. Romans 6:12-14 and Romans 12:1. Thank you for your response, I rejoice that you have been strengthened in your christian walk.

  10. John, for some reason my last reply did not post. Nevertheless, I am not sure where exactly alot of what you are saying is coming from. As one that not only follows the ministry of JSM and am also a member of the church, I can say for 100% certain that much of what you have brought out is taken out of context. Also, the key chapters that regard the christian keeping there faith anchored in the cross our Romans 6, 7, & 8. Lastly, the only person that JSM is lifting up is “Jesus Christ and him Crucified” and I would ask the question what is wrong with that. The gospel is what the world news, I need, you need, and everyone else. Jesus paid the price of our sins, all things that come to the believer come through that finished work. As a believer we have needs, spiritual, physical, domestical, material, and so on. The cross of Calvary has made it possible for God to meet all those needs. One more thing, this site is not very Christian at all. Why in the world would a site post the types of things that really unless somewhere were there, there is no way to substantiate. Now, if it actually biblically pointed out error, line by line verse by verse, that would be different. The fact is that it does’nt, everything has been taking out of context and thats not right. As I listen to the teaching, preaching, and worship from JSM, I can sense the annointing, the presence of God, and that is a wonderful thing. Also, the result for me has been bringing my family back together, deliverance from bondages of darkness, physical healing, and I can go on. Give them a chance, listen to them for a month with an open heart and allow the Lord to speak to you. God Bless.

    • AJ
      I would actually be glad to go line by line following Jimmy Swaggart’s own Romans 6 study guide but I don’t think you would absorb or critically review the facts I presented you. At this time you seem bent on defending the Swaggart’s in every area and Romans 6,7,8 don’t outline how “one exclusively places their faith in the cross” and it does not outline how a believer takes his faith in and out of the cross. Romans 6 actually outlines that we were sanctified on the cross Romans 6:6 and the 17th chapter of John as well as the newness of life that we receive by walking in resurrection power. This is all redemptive provision and them Paul outlines in Romans 6:11-22 outline how this provision is to be made an experiential reality in the life of the believer. Non of the instructions are put your faith in the cross. They are 1. Reckon 2. Let not 3. Yeild. However I have already put this several times and if you can’t follow that then greater detail would probably be pointless.

      I have given the Swaggart’s far more than a month my friend and without revealing to much information I can Garanuntee you that my exposure to that ministry has been greater than yours. And in fact the print shop scandal is a fact, I know several employees there that have verified that it was and in fact it was taken to the Top and the employee trying to stop corruption was rewarded by being fired and evicted from his apartment which the Swaggart’s own.

      You certainly can continue to swallow what they say, I would beg you to at least google the following.. Stanley Frodsham prophecy 1965… It is a shaking and powerful prophecy that lines up completely with Gods word and foretells suducers that will deceive and lead astray.
      Please take the time, it specifically foretells how some gifted called and anointed will start right and then be lead astray by seducing spirits and sadly foretells how many of Gods people will say that they don’t find the new doctrines in Gods word but they must be true because the things previously stated by that minister were true… It is a must read for every believer in this day. Disagree all you want with me AW and that’s fine, I, not trying to argue doctrine or theology but I am warning you. At least give this a read. God bless my brother.

      • John, to be honest, I dont personally have the time to go into alot of detail in respect to the teaching of Romans 6, 7, & 8. Its not that I dont want to, its that I simple dont have the time. I am a father to 7 kids, so my life is quite busy. As for the Stanely Frodsham prophecy, I have already read that and interestingly enough, it was also read on Brother Swaggarts program. Lastly, all I know is the radical change that has occurred in my own heart and life and its due to sitting under the teaching at JSM ministries, reading through the study guides, and commentaries. Its been a tremendous blessing to me and what is wrong with that? I can tell you from my own personal experience, I am not looking to JSM or any one else for my spirtual life, I am looking to Jesus and if a ministry is pointing people to JESUS and JESUS alone, that is a great and wonderful thing.

        • Yes I am aware that Jimmy has read that and from my point of view it is quite ironic. Jimmy also has it in his 1 John commentary however neither place have I ever seen jimmy read it in its entirety, nothing wrong with that but the entire thing is worth reading.
          Of course there is nothing wrong with looking to Jesus and whatever has been done in your heart is wonderful, but I would not make the mistake of drinking down all that’s coming from that ministry no matter what you have “experienced” in the past. The question is does it line up currently? I’m afraid it does not in so many ways, the preach a lot of truth and that’s what gets people.

          I’m glad you are pursuing Christ and if you continue and are truly open to the truth concerning JSM you very well may change your mind. God bless you

    • Fidelidad says:

      Dear AW,

      I am very happy, joyful, and pleased that you are finding victory and blessing through the God’s Grace, the Word of God, and JSM. Originally I wanted to share with you my reasons why I think you should be cautious about getting too involved with the JSM. However, after thought and prayer, I agree with you that if a person is only receiving blessing and victory, generally they are not going to believe negative stories, or, if they believe them, they will not give them much weight in their evaluation.

      So, instead, I just want to say that websites like this one do offer a much needed balm to people who have been, or feel, exploited and harmed by a ministry such as JSM. I am not going to go so far as to say that God is pleased with this website, because I do not believe God called me to publish such a site and I cannot speak for the owner. However, God does not hide the failures of even his chosen vessels, which you know from the Bible. God did not hide the failures of Abraham, Moses, David, Simon Peter, John and James, Matthew, Mark, and the Apostle Paul, among others, and some of those failures were very great and scandalous. But they are in writing for all eternity, and surely God is pleased with His Word, which does not lie.

      I can say with certainty that JSM has exploited and hurt many people, and when questioned about their actions, they will try to make the injured party believe they are crazy – somewhat like a rapist blaming his victim for the assault. I know this from my own personal experience and from observing, sometimes at a close distance, sometimes further away, mahy other examples and situations. And there were websites such as these that helped me deal with my own pain and confusion. One website in particular, which no longer exists, had a pastor who contributed many articles about how JSM/s teaching was not quite Biblical. This pastor knew Jimmy and Frances personally and had worked together with them for many years and going way back.

      So unless you particularly want me to tell you those areas where I think you should be cautious, I am just going to forget that. I just want you to know that this website is helping someone somewhere who has been victimized by the JSM. And I do think God is not displeased with that. He may even have ordained it to be, just as He can save and heal and give victory through a ministry like JSM.

      Your Sister in Christ
      Fidelidad (means Faithfulness in Spanish)

      P.S. I responded to this post, because the one where you answered me starts out “Fidelidad says,” and it should say “AW says,” and I wanted to make sure you got the notification of my answer.

  11. Fidelidad says:

    Dear AW, I have been following your remarks on this forum, and the back and forth with John. Could you clarify a couple of things for me? 1) Do you live in Baton Rouge and attend the physical FWC? Or are you a “Media Church” member? 2) Are you (comparatively) recently involved with JSM or are you aware of the history of this ministry, which goes back to the 60′s, 70′s and which really hit “the big time” in the 80′s? I am concerned that you are so eager to defend the JSM and never seem to see any negativity about them. If you are a Media Church member and have become involved with them in the last 10 years, or even 5, that would explain a lot to me, and I would like to discuss certain things with you.

    • Fidelidad says:

      Hi Fidelidad, yes I am a media church member and I have been for quite some time. Also, I am aware of the history of the ministry. I am open to discuss anything that you would like.

    • Fidelidad says:

      Fidelidad, I am a media church member but have followed JSM ministries since I was a kid. That is actually how I found Christ, through JSM ministries. As for me being so eager to defend JSM, I maybe shoud not even get involved in this type of stuff, because everything I have thus far read, most defintely puts a twist on what is being taught at JSM, and I know this because I ardently follow, pray for, and support the ministry. So when things are said, they are generally said out of context and the attitude that many protray Jimmy Swaggart as having is not there at all. Secondly, there are negative things about every human being on the planet, excluding none. So as for what has happened there, I know that no human on earth would want their sins plastered over television for the entire world to see and to be made fun of, mocked, and joked about, that is one more awful thing to happen to anyone and I have enough discernment about me to know that Jimmy Swaggart is 100% saved and forgiven and points people to the right place to get the help they need, which is the cross of Calvary. Also, I just finished up having Easter Camp meeting with them, and I dont have the words to even begin to explain, the presence of the Lord that I felt, the word of God that was preached under the annointing of the Holy Spirit, and it just was an all around wonderful experience. So, praise God, I am saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Ghost and I know from experience that what JSM is preaching is the truth and nobody can tell me differently. Just as when Jesus healed the blindman, can you imagine people saying oh you not healed. Its riduculous to say the least.

      • I’m a little confused, is Fidilidad having a conversation with himself or is the system messing up somehow and putting his name under AW’s responses?

        • Fidelidad says:

          Fidelidad is not having a conversation with herself (although I have done that, just not on this forum, hahahaha). AW response to me somehow were sent with the beginning “Fidelidad says . . . .” That’s why I responded to an earlier post from AW rather than his last, because I thought if I responded to this last one, the system would send the notification to me instead of to AW. Thanks for noticing.

  12. Ok, that’s what I thought.
    Unfortunately AW is not open to hearing the truth as it concerns JSM. He claims I’m out of context yet he can explain how, simply says JSM preaches the truth and he has great experiences at their camp meetings. Very sad because JSM is not preaching the truth and I’m not twisting it, it’s quite plain for those who care to know.

    • John, you did an excellent job trying to refute his belief in JSM. I say “belief in JSM” because it is not a belief in the God of Abraham Isaac Jacob or in the biblical Jesus. It is faith in an organization and a corrupt one at that. Having worked for them I can attest to their corruption and they have been steadily straying further and further from the truth while their supporters blindly follow.

      I liken it to a pilot whose equipment is just slightly off. If the pilot is just making a trip of 100 miles it will not be noticed much. However if the pilot is going thousands of miles his only slightly faulty equipment will cause him to be hundreds of miles off. JSM started off close to the truth but as time progresses they are further and further away.

      However, even if we discard their faulty doctrine ( while no bible believing Christian could) the fact that this is a PROVABLY corrupt organization should be all the “proof” one should need. Even though I had SOLID IRREFUATABLE evidence of the smut they were printing in their print shop people continued to call me a liar. In my experience, those within JSM do not want to listen or hear the truth. They believe what they want to believe and that is that. They think because they felt a tingle or were blessed in some way that this is evidence of God’s approval of this ministry and nothing could be further than the truth. Deceived people do not know they are deceived.

      • Mishel, its simply amazing to me how that you could come to the conclusion that you have about me, someone that you do not even now. For the record, I was saved at 13 years old and also Baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. That came about because of the preaching of Jimmy Swaggart. Now I admit, as a young man, my faith did stray from where it should be, Jesus Christ and him alone, to the man Jimmy Swaggart. That was definetly wrong and I found out that my faith should never be in any man on this earth, denomination, or anything else, but only in Jesus Christ and him alone and for that matter and more specifically, Jesus Christ and him crucified. It was he that died for me and he alone. Lastly, I would like to point out that the statement that you made in reference to me is 100% wrong, that should something to you hopefully. I am certain that this site is not at all pleasing to the Lord and it really sounds like that you have not forgiven those that hurt you because you seem to be holding on to this, when the right thing to do, is to forgive and move on. Hopefully you will post this. AW

    • John, I left Mishel a comment so hopefully it will post. Nevertheless, she came to a conclusion about me without even knowing me personally, its really a shame. For the record, my faith is not in JSM or any man made organization, but in Jesus Christ and him crucified. That is it, just that simple. Also, when I made the comment about you taking things out of context, its just the fact that I dont just attend Sunday morning service once in awhile, but I also do the night service, listen to Wed. night service and follow along with the teaching series. So, I know exactly what they believe and Jimmy Swaggart does’nt exhibit the kind of attitudes that are attributed to him, he has never one time said he was the “only one” or even promoted himself in that respect in the least kind of way, but on the contrary has been very humble and continues to teach that believers should look to the cross, the finished work of Christ as the answer to the sin nature. It is just as Paul said in Galations 2:20, that we are crucified with Christ and its easy for a believer to get their eyes onto their own works and not keeping their eyes upon Jesus. I did it myself, but when I began to as the apostle said in Romans Chapter 6 to reckon myself dead to sin “the sin nature” each and every day that my faith begin to get back to its proper foundation. AW

      • Ok AW
        As a fellow believer I truly wish you the best and I certainly could not determine your relationship with The Lord. But it’s obvious you hear the true things presented and have yet to identify the false. This week I heard with my own ears… I am not taking it out of context… If you listen to the morning show you heard it too… Jim Woolsey said if you are failing and stumbling in sin as long as your faith is in the cross then you are walking in the spirit. Jimmy Swaggart said yes yes I agree… Damnable, when you fail and you are sinning you are NOT WALKING IN THE SPIRIT, if you are repentant will Christ forgive you? Yes of course but to claim we can be in sin and in the spirit at the same time is a gross perversion of the scripture.

        • John, I am sorry my friend, but you are really not hearing what is being said. I did not listen to the particular message that you are referencing but I can tell you 100% what they are referring to and that is that as a christian, we are 100% Justified by faith in Christ and that justication does not change when we sin. Ofcourse repentance is a must for any christian and if one is truly saved and they sin, the Holy Spirit is going to convict their heart and lead them to repentance. I will use myself as an example, when I sin, I take it to the Lord and according to 1 John 1:9, if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Thank the Lord. I will continue on with myself as an example in that I struggled with a particular sin for years, not getting victory over the sin, confessing each time and asking the Lord to forgive me and he was always faithful to do so. During those times of where I failed God, I did’nt loose my justification, that position can not change, unless of course I denied the Lord and just walked away. So, during those times and especially when I began to listen to the teaching on the message of the Cross, there was a long period of discovery and seeing that my faith for victory and overcoming sin was really in my self and I have no power to overcome, but gradually the Holy Spirit helped me to anchor my trust and my confidence in the finished work Christ and understand that everything I recieve from God comes via “through calvary” and little by little I began to walk after the Spirit and there was definetley failures along the way, but Praise be to God, that sin does’nt have dominion over me anymore and its the most wonderful thing ever. And it all came through me getting a proper knowledge of what Jesus did, that it was a legal work and that there is nothing that I can add to that work. Its just simply Jesus and him Crucified. Now that is the same Gospel that the apostle Paul preached and its the same Gospel that Jimmy Swaggart Preaches.

      • Dear AW,
        I’m curious whether or not you continue to attend FWC and stand by your statements about the ministry that were made about 15 months ago. I would love to hear from you.

  13. I started listening to SBN radio a few months ago and was impressed with their focus on the cross. However, last week one of their pastors started referring to the “divine nature” in us and the red flags went up instantly. They did not linger on this so it’s possible he just misspoke, but any Christian and especially a pastor/theologian should know the heretical implications of this statement. The Three Persons of the Trinity are divine and we are human and only Christ has both a divine nature and a human nature – fully God, fully human. To imply that there is a divine nature in us is to deny we are created beings and all the false teachings that go along with that ideology.

    • AW…..THANKS for standing up for the Swaggarts……
      did you notice at the END of that long dissertation he stated that HE checked with HIS spirit. But this sad person needs a dose of the HOLY SPIRIT. IF this “john” spent as much time reading the Bible instead to trying to TELL OTHER that JSM is oh so bad….this person night have a chance of being saved. ALL of this guys babble is sickening. I have not heard one word that Jesus would approve of yet??? It is so sad when people are so covetous of others. No matter who the OTHERS are. The sad ones rail and rail against the HORROR these people are doing!! ALL I KNOW is THIS…when I watch I get chills and tears….I FEEL the Holy Spirit in the broadcasts. GLORY TO GOD for that…………I have missed hearing the WORD OF GOD and feeling HIM TOO………that’s awesome!!
      One person in this “potty blog” was talking about Frances…..I used to build CUSTOM homes in the PGA Florida!! Nice homes…..anyway I ran 55 carpenters and 20 in my form/foundations crew and some 36 labors and then my subs…..I bet if you spoke to any of my men they would tell you I WAS TUFF but fair. This guy that is babbling on has never RUN a business. Nor has the woman earlier in the blog….but I guess because the Swaggarts are famous they can’t SUE people like this that run their mouths and YET have backed up nothing. The one guy worked for them for THREE YEARS wow it was SOOOOOO bad for him…..huh!! If the poor guy was that fearful he should have LEFT but I guess the MONEY was still green…or was it because Francis was a strong WOMAN that made him fearful…anyway these people I hope God will forgive them…..but like the Bible says EVEN SATAN CAN QUOTE SCRIPTURE!!!!
      But it’s nice to see REAL people who love the word of God and FIND IT at SBN…can I get and amen?? These ??saints?? in the blog that bad mouth and condemn in the Name of religion would have thrown that first stone that day Jesus said….WHO will cast the FIRST STONE at the woman caught in the act…..because ALL of them here are SO….. FREE of SIN???
      Get on your knees JOHN…………who asked you to be judge and jury BECAUSE YOU THINK or BECAUSE YOU FEEL……..you “john” have your nerve…..but the LORD will fix that for yea and take the pain away from your worldly desires and this harm you wish to do to others….you poor sad thing!
      But thank GOD for SBN. ShareAthon starts tomorrow I have my offering ready…

      • T.Heim says:

        Rene, you are one DELUSIONAL woman! JSM followers are no different than people who followed Jim Jones! It’s extremely cult-like behavior! You are clearly crazier about JSM than the Lord Jesus Christ. A true Christ-follower ought to be able to worship, grow,and be ministered to from ANY pastor who preached the word of God. And,a passionate disciple of Christ is more eager to go out and serve, rather than be served! JSM constantly encourages church, church and more church. I never hear anyone encourages to serve, serve, serve. So, that’s great, you’re ready with your donation at the next fundraiser. Why? So JSM stays on the air so you can be “fed?” What a waste of money! Do you have ANY idea how the money is spent? How much for salaries, etc? No, you don’t, because Swaggart makes it known that there is no board of directors or anyone to whom they are accountable! So, Biblically speaking, that is poor stewardship! All of you JSM followers come across as fanatics! I urge you to take an honest look at yourselves, and ask WHY? Why is it so important for you to blindly, unequivocally support and defend THEM? Are you that unsure of your own abilities to think for yourselves, to understand scripture, or to have your own relationship with God?

  14. One more thing, I am really grieved by this site. Asking myself the question of why I even visited. I hope Mishel heres what I am about to say and that is, this website is not of the Lord and its breeding something very sinster and probably and most likely has hindered and hurt a few not so mature Christians. What is the purpose? Even many of the remarks and comments made our with such arrogance and pride. John, I would like for you to answer this question? Do you think the Lord would be pleased with this site and whats going on. No matter what, whatever transpired between Mishel and JSM, is between them and I was’nt there and its really such a shame to accuse someone and they not have a chance to defend themselves or all of the people that visit this site get a one-sided story, well there is another side to the story, should’nt that be heard. Again, I will visit back to check on your response John, and after that we will close it out because this is not profitable. Oh by the way, and I know there is no way for you or anyone to verify what I am about to say, but I have recieved so many blessings from JSM and there materia, I have recieved physical healing in my body, and when the recession hit and I lost my job, I was only laid off for a day before I was hired at another company, same salary and benefits and recieved a months severance pay, now thats the Lord and the interesting thing about it is that I tithe to JSM, so just prior to that, I had a little bit of money saved up and the Lord basically spoke to my heart to give to the ministry and I did and the Lord has kept me employed ever since making even more money than I did back then. “the proof is in the pudding”

  15. Aw
    Being justified does not mean that when we sin we are “still in the spirit” that is error. When we sin we have yielded to the flesh. To make people think that when they are sinning they are still in the spirit as long ” as their faith ever stays anchored in the cross” is a damning teaching that will cause people to wink at sin, stay in sin and not seek to live a righteous life

    • John, perhaps you just misunderstood the statement, I have been following and sitting under that ministry for over 12 years and have never thought one time that I can sin and be in the spirit.

    • ARE YOU NUTS???? You know john…..you just might need a long vacation…..it sounds like the strain of being SO HOLY is getting to you …..your halos to tight maybe ??!!!

      WOW…… you people on this potty blog WILL ANSWER TO GOD one day. OR in your crazed desire to WRITE these worthless nasty accusing defamatory words…. forget that your mind and your tongue WILL be judged by GOD?? I don’t know if you are a sheep or a goat…..but IF I WERE YOU…..I would take a nice LONG break and stop this…..stop being jealous of the WORD of GOD…..you can be CHANGED by it too……Jesus loves all sinners!! Seek HIM john….because you really are skating on some very thin ice here with your words…..
      You might want to ATTACK some true APOSTATE preachers on TV. The LIST is long and getting longer…..now see…..you can say these things and SOME things spoken will be RIGHT AS RAIN!!!! And you will need no proof either there…..the TRUTH is in the WORD and when that TRUTH is right you see the FRUITS of the word…..come and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is LORD….repent and Jesus will wash you in HIS blood and make you clean and then the Holy Spirit will come into your heart and soul and GUIDE you in a NEW walk with Jesus john… WOW…………… I just feel so SORRY for you and maybe YOUR SPIRIT is lost…..you keep talking about YOUR SPIRIT……….you need to EXAMINE yourself john….I do not THINK you truly have the GIFT of discernment…..have you even been Baptized with the HOLY SPIRIT with HIS dunamas POWER?? Something isn’t right with you….I’ll ask the LORD to give me a word of knowledge about you….because I really feel you need some serious help. The more I site here and write the more the Holy Spirit makes me feel sad for you!! maranatha maranatha

      YOU KNOW in court you need P R O O F ….BUT in blogs all you have to do is SMEAR and lie. HERE john and that girl mishel that posted here NEED a big bunch of TOILET PAPER to wipe themselves off.
      Because it it getting DEEP in here. Like AW said why am I HERE………….LORD HELP ME I have fallen into a PIT and please FORGIVE ME for trying to stop stupidity from running rampant here!!
      Come Holy Spirit I need thee…. Come Holy Spirit I pray…..Come Holy Spirit in thy strength and thy power…oh LORD……Come Holy Spirit I pray!!! Love it when he sings that on the crusades!

      I feel dirty now…..I need my Holy Spirits touch… SOOOOOOOO john I will leave you to your slander and sad illl will and I’ll go to SBN and breath some clean HOLY SPIRIT air and hear some good music to boot!! GLORY TO GOD…………thank you MY LORD JESUS for what YOU did for a wretch like me on the CROSS…………………maranatha maranatha !!!

      • Rene, you must be deaf or oblivious to the constant criticism by JSM of other ministries, and constant elevation of themselves and their ministry! One can’t help but hear it every hour, every program, every speaker! Perhaps it’s their excellect music and musicians that distract or drown out the bragging, but at least their music is worth bragging about. However, they are just one of many ministries with excellent musicians and music, yet they haven’t once ever stated so…..they only say they have the best music in the world, etc. “He who humbles himself will be exalted.” I believe that’s the way the scripture reads.

  16. AW
    You have not received healing through the material of JSM, and your financial well being is not connected to JSM the very fact that you think such is quite sad. Evidently you view Jimmy as your mediator, you get healing thru JSM, you get a good job because you give to JSM. I feel that The Lord is not happy with the bondage that JSM is placing people in, and as far as this site I can not speak for every article because I have not read every article but the bible tells us not to have fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness but instead to reprove them. JSM speaks like in hypocrisy about others, so I am glad that their true colors are being exposed to those that will hear.
    Can I say that Mishel has %100 pure motive and no bitterness from her JSM experience? No I really can’t because only God knows the heart of a person, I can only say that from what I have picked up she seems to be quite disturbed from the happenings of JSM and she should be. I have not picked up a bitter or vengeful spirit about her but when truth is told about personalities that people have made idols out of it hurts. I can truly say at one time I was an avid supporter of JSM, I thought they were truly presenting the “old paths” the true Gospel. However after many checks in my spirit and a intense examination of their teaching and of scripture I have to say with 100% certainty that they are not.
    I don’t have a bone to pick with them personally but the damage they are doing and the damage they will do is enormous and grieving. They are truly wolves in sheeps clothing. I pray they repent because God will judge what is taking place if they do not turn. Judgment came in the 80s as that ministry lifted itself up as the beacon of truth and downed all others as not quite living up to the standard of Jimmy. This pious hypocrisy was judged and without repentance that is the only end to what is currently happening today. The new Jimmy is a whole lot like the old Jimmy.

    AW we will have to agree to disagree, however you are being fleeced but “great swelling words of vanity” John said those that do righteous are righteous. They may speak some truth but sadly the truth is not in them and error can’t stand.

    • John, wake up man!! I am done here. I have been tremendously blessed throught the “preaching and teaching” at Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, never once have I held him or anyone else up as my means of blessing and healing, but the facts our, I was healed watching the telecast, I’ve learned to tithe watching the telecast, my eyes are on Jesus Christ and him alone. Not this site, you or anyone else can change that. Jesus is my Lord and saviour. You just dont want to believe, thats all. You can respond if you like, but I want be back. This site is not of the Lord, its actually evil.

  17. AW and John, you guys are my brothers, but the back and forth is not edifying. AW, you have a sweet spirit. May God continue blessing you. Always remembering that Christ is the final authority, not a ministry, a feeling or a man. John, I see your passion in revealing truth but what is the true motive behind it? Just to prove a point to win an argument? After reading all the information posted by Mishel, I am on the fence with JSM now. I must say, I was truly enjoying the Frances and Friends TV program before coming across to this site. Quite a let down for me. Will change the channel. Let’s pray for their ministry.

    • DAVID…. here (this site) is what needs to be turned Off…..do you feel the Holy Spirit here??? NO and NO and ten thousand times no. But SBN….I FEEL IT……..don’t let some people who know zero and have even less NO PROOF and can’t even back up ONE stinking statement do your thinking for you !!??
      MOVE from SBN if your SOUL is not being fed…..because one of the FEW places the TRUE WORD of GOD is preached and taught and sung is SBN !! Don’t allow this petty and sad back biting rhetoric move your soul ONE INCH. Blogs like this are less than a dime a dozen….it’s so easy to SAY what ever and call it THEIR TRUTH…………it doesn’t matter anymore IF THE TRUTH is even close to the being true…..but here…..they all need some soap!!
      You discern David….is there fruit and is the WORD of GOD spoken…..if YES then enjoy SBN and just chalk THIS PLACE up to a bad dinner that had to find a toilet quickly and get flushed….down goes the yuck and the stink !!
      Blessings and let your light shine the LORD needs HIS saints for the up coming harvest…..HE’S coming back soon!! Glory glory Praise God

      • Rene,
        Thank you for your response and concern for my Soul. While I understand that you are angry with me because you obviously are very emotionally invested into the Swaggart ministry. While I have pointed out error in the swaggart teaching I have not slandered their person nor wil I. God is the Judge and we will all do well to leave that duty to him, he alone determines if a heart is truly born again and walking in the light of Christ.

        Have you spent any significant time at the swaggart ministry in Baton Rouge? If you have not I assure you Television does not tell the whole story. I can honestly say that I pray on a regular basis for those at the ministry, not everyday but on a regular basis. I’m not mad at them, I don’t hate them and I certainly can’t stand in the way on anyone watching them. However that does not mean I have to be in agreement with them.

        They teach things that are right. There teaching that you are saved only by grace is very much correct. Their teaching that only faith can bring about a sanctified life is very much correct. But they are supremely imbalanced to the point that they border heretical in some of their teaching.

        You ask if I have been filled with the spirit, well yes I have and I certainly believe that speaking in tongues is a evidence of a spirit filled life but the proof is in the fruit of your life, are you living a holy life free from sin and walking in the Love and gentleness of Christ. I certainly strive to.

        The fruit from JSM is quite rotten and while I’ll be the first to agree that some people are blesse by the ministry that still does not validate the error. For example a person who has been bound by legalism may turn on the network and hear the message of Grace, this will be like a fresh splash of water on a parched and dry tongue.

        However when they receive this truth and then attribute it to the Swaggart ministry and them digest all of their teaching they have swung from one pendulum of error to the other.
        Like Inhave said over and over on this site, error rides on the back of truth, really good error rides on the back of much truth. I John says that we have a Holy anointing and he also said the Holy Spirit leads to all truth, you don’t need to argue with me and I don’t need to argue with you, pray and read Gods word without the imposition of man thought engrafted into the word( Jimmy Swaggart’s expositors bible) and let The Lord guide your descion to support or not support the Swaggart’s.

  18. Grace Evans says:

    i agree with everything that has been said swaggart teaches some truth and lots of false i do not read his bible but only the regular king james bible.

  19. Edwin Rodriguez says:

    I’M NOT A JUDGE, GOD KNOW EVERTHING, THE BIBLE SAIDS THAT ONE DAY, MANY WILL SAY TO ME IN THAT DAY, LORD LORD, HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED IN YOUR NAME, CAST OUT DEMONS IN YOUR NAME, AND DONE MANY WONDERS IN YOUR NAME? AND THEN I WILL DECLARE TO THEM, I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPAT FROM YOU WHO WORK INIQUITY ( MATTHEWS: 7: 22,23 ) I KNOW THAT THEY ARE MANY CROOKS LIVING OF GODS PEOPLES, AND THEY WILL ACOUNT TO GOD FOR, AND THEY ARE MANY CHURCH GOING PEOLPE THAT YOU CLOUD PROVE THE THURTH TO THEM AND ARE STIIL BLIND TO IT.. SO BROTHER MISHEL KEEP THE FAITH, BECAUSE THEY ARE WHOM SHOWEN PROVE OF THE JMS… CHURCH OPEN YOURS EYES TO THE FALSE PREACERS, THE BIBLE SAIDS BY THERE FRUITS YOU WILL KNOW.. SO YOU READ THE WROD OF GOD, THE WORD OF GOD WILL YOU WHOS WHO.. SO BE CAREFULL OF CROOKY PREACHES.. GBU YOU ALL..

  20. Aw where is the scriture at “the evidence of speaking in other tounges”? I looked in my Strongs and never found such scripture.Please give me the Book,chapter and verse.
    Mishel keep your faith God always takes care of his own.

  21. I wanted to thank you for this fantastic read!! I definitely loved every
    little bit of it. I have got you book-marked to
    look at new things you post…

  22. the reason i am here is because ive been watching sonlife and something just didnt sit right, lot is said about francis thats funny to because when i first listened to her i thought wow she is nasty, after she ridiculed a caller, i can see how people can be attracted to this theres no doubt j swaggett is a fine musician nice voice , but if you look long enough even the untrained eye can see all is not what it seems.

    • I absolutely see the mean spirited look that Francis has.It seems like a family reality show to me.They have to make lots of money in order to keep that big family up and they
      Look like they have the best of everything.I will donate y money to children and old peopleAfter all,isn’t that what the church is suppose to do?

  23. I went to JSBC in the same year as the 1988 scandal. I have seen some of the things stated.
    However, I have only caught a few recent teachings. I really don’t see much difference. I know whom I have believed in and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I commited against that day.People, we have got to keep our eyes on the Lord. He is the author and finisher of our faith. Over the last 30 years I have seen a lot of foolish : ” holy laughter”, rolling on the floor, greed , lust, gold dust,” being drunk in the spirit”, etc. Only the truth will remain. All the other “stuff” will burn in the refiners fire on the day we see Christ face to face. I have long ago stopped looking to ” men of God” and looked only to Him. Be a Godchaser not a man chaser. All have sinned.

  24. There is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. This type of Christianity is why the world will not receive Christ. I will never send another dollar to TV evangelists. I will however send to local churches, and support widows and orphans. The anointing has lifted from this ministry, but it has not lifted from the word of God, so people may still be blessed under their teaching, but God will not be mocked, what they have sown, they will reap.

  25. James Morrow says:

    I’m a christian man from Australia. I know no one in this forum, to the best of my knowledge. When saved – April 1994 – I fell pell mell into the deception of the Word/Faith movement. For several years I went along with the mantras and jingoism associated with that heresy and would have stayed there and lost my family/fortune/sanity like so many other souls have over time had it not been for my saviour, Jesus Christ the righteous, leading me to listen to a man by the name of Jimmy Swaggart. I was angered at first by his assertions about Word/Faith heresy however he had a fire and foundation of scripture that I craved since salvation so I continued to listen. Anytime someone told me that Jimmy was a charlatan only emboldened me to listen more to Jimmy, and less to the knockers. Within a couple of years, around the year 2000, I had hundreds of sermons including tapes and LP records , vitually all Jimmy’s teaching series with some on longplay LP from the mid-seventies and all but a handful of the sixty odd LP albums that he had produced. Including the Shiloh label. I was, and still today, not ashamed to declared what a blessing Jimmy Swaggart had been to me. I knew more than anyone of my contempories about Jimmy Swaggart and his ministry and when you consider that I rubbed shoulders with numbers who had hosted Jimmy at their churches and later Donnie Swaggart as well, that says something. JSM Ministries phone number in Australia was dialled often! I kept reading in the word however of God’s ministers behaving a certain way, and I wasn’t seeing this from the Swaggarts. It is amazing what a believer can pick up on video tape. Little things. A thumbs up to someone out of view after they had delivered an interpretation to tongues. Not centre screen and almost unseeable. A rewind button is a useful tool. Stories about meeting Jesus. So fantastical it puts Pauls humble discertation in the “unimportant” category. All the while I was receiving criticism from all those around me. I would often say that Jesus was alone on the cross so I guess are God’s true ministers, but deep down I was disturbed by the claims. When any believer compares the humility of Christ and the words of Jimmy Swaggart they should be dumbfounded. My cleansing of the Swaggart stain off my soul began when I read an article about JSM being sued by the printers of the Dake Anotated Bible. I thought that would be easy to answer as I own a Dake. I whipped it out incensed at this accusation. I thought if there was a problem it was a minor one with not a lot of copying at all. These commentaries are no longer in print and have been totally rewritten. Out came the Dake. Down went my jaw! On almost every single page, and I checked ramdomly through several hundred pages and true enough, Swaggart and copied virtually word for word great swathes of Dake’s material. Those commentaries, at $76.00 a piece, were torn and tossed! I had 11 of which all but 4 were given as a blessing to a sister only weeks before. I was incensed however was not yet fully convinced Jimmy Swaggart was a conman. As the years progressed I continued to listen to their radio over the internet and was blessed however I was formulating my own ideas on doctrine and must say I was never convinced about his doctrinal bent since adopting “The Revelation of the Cross”. I won’t get into it now however the emphasis is that Jimmy Swaggart is the only one to have it – in the world! Really!!!! I can only be saved through Jimmy Swaggart Ministries then! If you’ve listened to him for any length of time, you would have heard the same. The back of the camel was brocken so to say when I heard one of their telethons. Swaggart himself made the claim that it cost $37.00 on average an hour per translator station to go to air. I thought, ” Wow. That’s interesting. So I worked out that each translator, on average cost 24( hours in a day) X $37.00 an hour to run per day. They at that point had over 60 translators so that works out a lot. Per day! Now fimes that by 30 days in a month and 365 days for a year and that’s many times more than the figure they gave. I did my sums and emailed the ministry in the US to alert them of their error. I even said something like, ” an enemy would use this error to hurt the ministry on the internet. Good thing a friend discovered it.” Well I used to watch the morning Sunday service over the net on Monday morning when it was re-run. To my surprise Francis got up and castigated someone on the internet who has spent more time worrying about ministry finances by calculating daily, weekly, monthly, yearly expenses from imaginary figures or some such. I started to think that someone had done what I warned about, and tried to hurt the minstry. Then twenty minutes or so later Jimmy got up and did it again but he essentially stated a few things I stated in the email. Their attack was on me! I’m so honoured! I was questioning much at that point but that was God answering a number of prayers I had prayed all in one. My point of this my long winded response was to show how God used one man extract another man caught in a lie ( thing how God used Nebuchadnezzer to save the nation of Israel. Nebuchadnezzer was not a believer). Then when that man was mature enough, he spoke in numbers of ways to show him heresy directly!

    • Thank you for your story. From what I have observed, they troll for those who have been fed-up with Word of Faith and Dominionism, then offer them something that will, in the end, ensnare them in error that is just as deadly.

  26. James Morrow says:

    That is interesting. Around 2002 I really started to separate from any association from the Swaggart ministries and it’s amazing how long suffering the Lord really is. They even cut off the people running the ministry in Australia who had faithfully and dutifully served “the cause” and who had forgone wages even using money earnt from secular chef work to prop up their holy grail – The Telecast. God help us. When it was time to consolidate all ministry functions (profits) to the US. They cut and ran. I had some dealings through the South African set up also. A man by the name of Simon Bartholemew Locke was running it then. I don’t know about now. I ordered many old preaching video tapes from him. I wired a little over $1000 in Australian currency to him through Western Union for about 90 video tapes. I recieved about half that amount some months later and am still waiting ten years on. Several follow-ups by me availed nothing so of course I realised that he was keeping my money. I think I was spending about a half an hour each call and I made three calls. That’s about $100 back then. Pre skype obviously. I know so much about the machinations of the ministry that it’s not funny. It’s amazing how much people will say when they feel free to say it. Donnie’s first divorce. His and Jimmy’s argument with Jennifer Swaggart, before she and Debbie left. The re-marriage of Donnie. I stopped talking to various people in the know because at the time I wished to pray for the Swaggarts and these others were using me as a Father Confessor! I haven’t talked to them since. I thought if you are such a close associate of these people and you tell me, a nobody not close at all, then what spirit are you of! Anyway. I could say more but why bother. Thanks again. James.

  27. The accusations are unsubstantiated!! It appears to me that you all are on a fault finding mission. The bigger question is how are you preaching the Gospel? Are you living a life that glorifies God? Why don’t you spend your time speaking against evolution, homosexuality, abortion and secular humanism in the public school system?

    I am a former Bible College student and have been supporting the ministry for years. What you all don’t bring out is how JSM has stood against sin and preached the uncompromising Gospel for 30+ years. Do things go wrong at times? Sure they do. I’ve been around this country and its hard to find a good preacher. Most of them are too concerned about their 501K tax exempt status and won’t speak the truth.

    As I re-read the blog it just sounds like a bunch of cackling hens – I hope and pray you are doing something more with your life than whining about what JSM did wrong to you!

    • If you think these accusations are unsubstantiated then either you have not looked at the evidence, or you have chosen to turn a blind eye to it. I think it is self refuting that you call others out for speaking against the Swaggarts but then you turn around and do the exact same thing by speaking against myself and those who have attempted to expose them. I suppose you do not see the irony in this. If you are willing to keep listening despite documented proof of their continued PRACTICE of a lifestyle of unrighteousness then by all means keep listening. In terms of doing more with my life then whining what JSM did wrong to me- that is and never was the issue. However, I suppose it is easier to discredit the messenger than actually listen to what they might be trying to tell you. I understand. I also want to assure you, since you are obviously concerned with how I allocate my time, that this blog is an infinitesimal, and rather unimportant fraction of what I do. It is always amusing to me when people claim I spend ALL my time on calling out the Swaggarts. I only even look at this blog one or two times a month and the Swaggarts are only a small part of the overall content. So with all due respect, the only person whining here is you.

    • T. Heim says:

      Rick,
      Have you ever seen a financial statement, or any documented financial information disclosing the ministry costs, e.g. salaries for the Swaggart’s, how many people are on staff in paid positions, what those salaries are, how many stations SBN is actually on, what those costs are?? Are you aware of how much the ministry takes in from ALL sources, (offerings, donations by mail, product sales, and telethons? Has anyone ever verified the stated “need” (amount) they claim for their monthly telethons??

      What never ceases to amaze me is how willing so many Christians are to blindly give to ANY pastor or evangelist who stands up and claims they are doing “the Lord’s work!” They accept, without question, what they’re told. (Even when the person asking has been proven to be “less than honest”). What is that?? There are SO MANY needs in this world…people who are in desperate situations who could use financial help!! There are people around us every day whose needs are OBVIOUS. What a “ministry” it would be if we would be so willing to give to someone like that. The same people who will give to some preacher, without question, are the same ones that question the honesty of a person panhandling on the street!! Why?? God help us! I believe we all have a lot to answer for!

  28. I was trying to find the JSM website and stumbled on this blog by accident. Thank you Mishel for a place to write my opinion, because i am an old man who cares for a disabled wife and raising a teenage granddaughter, and no one else listens to me. I am not affiliated with JSM in any way (not even Pentecostal) – just love the praise and gospel music on SBN very much and I love Jesus. My life is difficult as I am self employed, getting old and have many burdens. I have found joy and peace on SBN and have heard noting but truth as I understand the Bible.

    I do not feel a spirit of peace, but a spirit of contention on this blog, and feel compelled to write because I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ, including those who may disagree on nuances of doctrine and workplace expectations. It took me many years of stumbling and child raising, and mistakes made, to understand the importance of forgiveness. It is truly the catalyst for a fee and loving spirit because we all so desperately need it, and what we extend to others will be a shadow of the perfect forgiveness we receive from the King who died for us.

    I believe it to be wrong to criticize past scandals, divorces, and other issues that have occurred years ago, and have been repented of by the Swaggart family. They are flesh and blood just as we are, and we are not their judge. I believe all of the complaining about employee issues and how the Swaggarts run their business, is simply that – their business. They are running multiple enterprises – a world class music ministry and evangelistic outreach. Do I agree with everything – of course not. Some of the comments from disgruntled employees are unbelievable. Just leave and get another job if you are not a team player. We are to serve our masters with humility and dignity – not backbiting. I served under some difficult employers in my profession and did my work to their standards and expectations. I left the offices of some other employers due to insurmountable circumstances. All small companies and family owned businesses are mini-dictatorships and employees never have any sense of the weight of responsibility at the helm unless they have been in those shoes. Often the root of the critical spirit is low self esteem or even much worse – jealosy.

    I hope and pray everyone will resolve their differences in a scriptural manner with their brothers and sisters, and approach the communion table with a free and clear spirit of forgiveness. Forgiveness is awesome – out of this world!

  29. David Sanchez says:

    I watch Sonlife on occasions, but it is a little disturbing watching the arrogance of Donnie Swaggart on the Frances & Friends Show. When callers call in to ask a question, Frances and Donnie just seem a little rude at times. I do not see humility at all with these two. Something just doesn’t ring right with this ministry. Another turn off is their study Bible they consistently advertise. The Expositor’s Bible. I just recently purchased it and returned it right back. It is very distracting trying to read the Word and Jimmy’s comments all over in red lettering. It’s like he was literally adding to the Word of God. Anyone has this Bible?

    • Yes I have a copy that I have read fairly extensively. He says some good things at times. He certainly gives commentary that I don’t agree with. To be fair every bible commentary adds notes from the viewpoint of then commentator. However I probably have never seen a study by so interrupted with notes right into the verses. He touts his understanding of the cross throughout and it does not really stimulate much study but more so indoctrinated and reinforces his cross teaching.

      • David Sanchez says:

        The Bible is distracting. Mr. Swaggart inputs the wording “the cross, the cross, the cross” too many times within his textual commentaries on the Expositor’s Bible. We get the point. It’s too repetitive, making it kinda an awkward reading. What say you?

  30. Valerie Whitmore says:

    I am under no illusion regarding the Swaggart family. The employees must feel like slaves with no basic human rights. But I did watch last Sunday night’s broadcast lead by Bob Cornell, having recorded it to view British Standard Time today. As on other occasions when the Swaggarts are not present I noticed a more relaxed atmosphere. After a previous service when Bob Cornell was in charge he told the congregation at the end of a meeting they could stay for ministry as long as they liked even after the camera’s had stopped rolling. I was encouraged by this change. Last Sunday night the service drew to a close with the piano playing softly for about 5 minutes. The congregation swayed gently & appeared as one & in tune with each other & the Holy spirit. Couples held on to each other. The singers appeared confused as to what they should do. Eventually they all sat down & I hope were able to relax in God’s presence. Just before the camera’s stopped rolling Bob again told the congregation there was no hurry for them to leave. I just pray that the presence of the Lord will become more evident in that place, that hardened hearts will be softened & integrity restored at JSM.

    • There will be no integrity, as long as the Swaggart’s are there. The things that happen outside the church service are more important than what happens in the service! Too much emphasis is being placed on church services. The way that we live our lives is our true worship to God! It’s a mistake to attribute the “presence of God” to our emotional responses to music and singing (or being in a room of like-minded people). The presence of God is everywhere, as the Word of God states. As believers, the presence of the Holy Spirit is within us. Our sins are forgiven when we come to Christ by faith, whether or not we feel saved or forgiven. The state of our relationship to God is evidenced by the “fruit” in our lives! The Swaggart’s central focus is on what happens in church, what’s said in church, or what people think or believe. The true measure of one’s spiritual condition is one’s character, the way one behaves toward others, themselves and God. That matters much more to me than one’s outward appearance in church. I don’t understand people who wish to worship, or even associate with them. If Swaggart didn’t have his own ministry, he wouldn’t be in ministry! JSM has no credibility within the evangelical world. The Swaggart’s and their associate pastors only service small, fundamentalist churches, some which call themselves Family Worship Center. I’ve listened to many hours of SBN, so I feel confident about my assessment of the ministry. The ignorance of what’s put forth is astounding! People either have to be as ignorant as they are, or be willing to set aside any common sense or education they may possess in exchange for something they see as beneficial. It appears they are willing to overlook character in order to be entertained, or have their “fundamentalist beliefs” reinforced! It’s quite sad.

      • It is hard to believe the people in the worship ministry, when they are out of the church, go to bars, party, and use F-bombs on their Facebook pages. This is stuff I am reading. I think a lot of it is lies. This cannot be confirmed.

    • I will say that the Cornell’s “appear” to have the most sincerity. Bob seems to be the smartest guy there! He doesn’t say much on the “message of the cross” or “a study in the word.” I’ve seen him attempt to “correct” some of the absurd statements made by Jimmy, but it’s clear that he walks on eggshells while doing it! However, Cornell appears to buy the whole “message of the cross” doctrine to the extent that he is a key player in the Bible college. I don’t know anything about Cornell’s character, but I don’t understand why someone would be willing to be associated with JSM if they are an independent thinker and/or believes character matters.

      • He is a good guy and so is his wife, you are right on target. He sees some error but over all he is a message of the cross devotee

  31. T. Heim says:

    Mishel,
    Two things, 1) Does Jimmy Swaggart always travel with body guards? (A rumor going around the internet) It wouldn’t surprise me, because he seems to delight in attacking others, saying controversial things, bragging, and stating how others Christian leaders are jealous of him and hate him because God has chosen to give HIM the “message of the cross.” (See May 2 broadcast of “The Message of the Cross.”

    And secondly, One of the singers from the worship team, Randy Knaps, has recently disappeared from the FWC scene without a word about it from the Swaggart’s! People all over Facebook are asking what happened to him, and no one from the ministry answers. He has a terrific voice, and was obviously, one of their featured singers. It’s strange (almost like Sadam Hussain’s regime)!

    Thanks!

    • Swaggart does not have body guards as one would normally define it. However he does have people who “watch” him. I think this is more for his benefit- I do not think they are worried about what someone might do to him. As far as Randy Knaps goes I have no idea. I would say that either he got on their bad side or found another job. They treat both scenarios with silence. As far as Jimmy having the “message of the cross,” it kind of makes you wonder how anyone ever got saved before Jimmy Swaggart. To hear him talk you would think that for two thousand years NO ONE has got it right.

  32. Has anyone ever noticed how rarely anyone at JSM preaches from the gospels? How rarely the actual words of Jesus are quoted? Jesus focused on the condition of the heart. He talked about how important our character is, and how we are to demonstrate our love for God by what we do for, and how we treat our neighbor. Jesus never walked up to people and blurted out “you’re a sinner, and you need to accept me or you’re going to hell!” the only people he treated harshly and spoke bluntly to were the religious hypocrites! (perhaps someone should remind them of that fact).

    Most of their sermons are from the Old Testament, or are Paul’s writings. Swaggart seems to be more in love with Paul than he is with Christ. I think one of the places that he really gets off base is when he tries to extrapolate meaning from the Old Testament stories. He interprets every word as somehow referring to the cross. Yet, it’s interesting that he so harshly criticizes the Hebreaic “movement.”

    There was quite a moment of levity(for me) the other morning on Frances and friends when Jimmy was on the panel. Jimmy stated that it’s a SIN for a Christian to use a prayer shawl or to attend a Passover dinner, or do anything to follow the old Jewish law ( they claim that if you do, your motive is that you don’t believe that the finished work of Christ is satisfactory for salvation) but then he caught himself mid sentence and said “oh, except for circumcision! We do that for “health reasons” ( I guess Jimmy is unaware that circumcision is not medically necessary)! The Swaggart’s constantly judge the motives of people they’ve never met. It doesn’t even seem to enter their mind that a Christian might just want to participate in some of those things for the experience, or for a greater understanding, or to share and relate with the Jewish friend! Just like they accuse Christians of relying on works for salvation when they do things like pass out water bottles or feed the hungry or volunteer for community events, etc. Do they not understand that “works” follow “faith, or are the result of our faith and love for Christ (faith without works is dead)?

    Anyway, to me these are just some of the obvious things that stick out with the Swaggart ministry. They appear to be self-evident and I would think, be enough for one to be able to question the validity of this ministry. Evidently not!

    Jimmy Swaggart is a talented musician! and he hires talented musicians! I postulate that if it wasn’t for his music, he would not have a ministry! But it’s hard for me to enjoy his music because of his arrogance, false teaching, rudeness, unloving and bitter spirit. Not to mention the repetition! Does anyone know why he has to repeat the same verse 2 or 3 times, or the whole song over and over and over again? Does he think we didn’t get it the first time? I have wondered about this for a while! Frankly, I think he must just like to hear the sound of his own voice, or he thinks what he is singing is so profound that we have to hear it 2 or 3 times or more! He constantly has a live microphone and interjects while others are performing! It’s clearly all about him!

  33. I have a question, how many times has Donnie Swaggart married? Someone told me he’s had several divorces. Is that true? As I read the Bible, divorce is a major sin like homosexuality and adultery.

    • You don’t! You are better off getting a good English translation (ESV or RSV) or a paraphrase (like The Living Bible, or The Message). Jimmy Swaggart is NOT a Bible scholar! He has NO training or Education in his background to approach such a daunting task (interpret all scripture). Most scholars don’t consider themselves experts on everything about or in scripture. The King James Bible (the only version Swaggart believes is accurate) has undergone 19 revisions!! 19! Many scholars, over the years, were involved in this product. It takes experts in English, Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. It takes historians (Jewish, Christian, religious and secular). Swaggart doesn’t seem to appreciate this. He writes as if HE is the final authority, and is infallible. Only the most arrogant, self-deluded person would attempt such a thing! I would never trust a product produced by a person like that!

    • Marriages and divorces are public record. A search of public records should reveal that answer. I asked that question on Donnie Swaggarts Facebook page. The response? “What does it matter?” And then, they blocked me!
      I read somewhere that Donnie and first wife Debbie divorced due to an affair she had with someone on the worship team. He married a “Linda,” and divorced her and then he remarried Debbie. Don’t know if it’s true. But, I have always wondered because he rarely ever mentions her or talks about marriage or family (except for Gabe). She appears in their family pictures posted on the internet. If not for that, it would be difficult to know she exists!
      And yes, divorce is no different than homosexuality in terms of sin. Christians don’t seem to take that seriously enough!

      • Yes, and I noticed in many churches, possibly at the FWC as well, couples have intimate relationships without being married. They figure that they’re in grace by just believing in Christ, his resurrection, and the Cross to be enough. Their reasoning is that they’ll eventually get married, so why not have sex. Then these people make a big deal about homosexuals. Don’t get it.

  34. Valerie Whitmore says:

    A reply to T.Heim. From my experience You can feel different degrees of the of the Holy Spirit. Last Sunday night did not appear to me to be emotionalism. I felt that the congregation were resting in the Lord. There was an unusual sense of peace. Jimmy later reported that many people from around the world commented on last Sunday’s services with the Cornell’s, especially the evening service.

    An issue I am concerned about is that if employees who live on Swaggart territory leave their jobs they may be asked to vacate their homes within 24 hours. Are there no laws in place to protect them.

    • Ex-I would think Louisiana has landlord and tenant laws on the books. Unless a tenant is savvy about the law, a landlord can get by with violating it. These ex-tenants & employees may have a case against JSM. If they’ve truly been wronged, they should pursue it, not only for their benefit but for the benefit of others. Especially ones who we’re fired without cause. Why are they not eligible for unemployment?

      Another thing I’ve noticed is that the Swaggarts always arrive and leave the platform through that back door. Do they not interact with their parishioners and guests? Also, Gabriel is frequently absorbed in his I-Pad, tapping constantly throughout the sermon. I’ve heard people call in to Frances &Friends and mention this, and they are always defensive about it, saying that he is taking notes on the sermon, etc. To me, it doesn’t appear that he’s “taking notes.” Regardless, it’s clear that the Swaggarts believe that EVERYTHING they think and do is correct and above reproach! Gabriel even complained on one of his shows, that people were criticizing his recent haircut, saying that he looked like a punk rocker, or that it was too “worldly” looking. he was saying how silly that all was, and I have to agree! but then Gabriel turns around and criticizes other churches other pastors other people for similarly ridiculous things….. music or dress, or movies etc. I think they invite that type of criticism buy their own critical

  35. WOW! My head is spinning and now I am really confused! I thought I wanted the JSM study bible, now not so sure.

    • You don’t! You are better off getting a good English translation (ESV or RSV) or a paraphrase (like The Living Bible, or The Message). Jimmy Swaggart is NOT a Bible scholar! He has NO training or Education in his background to approach such a daunting task (interpret all scripture). Most scholars don’t consider themselves experts on everything about or in scripture. The King James Bible (the only version Swaggart believes is accurate) has undergone 19 revisions!! 19! Many scholars, over the years, were involved in this product. It takes experts in English, Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. It takes historians (Jewish, Christian, religious and secular). Swaggart doesn’t seem to appreciate this. He writes as if HE is the final authority, and is infallible. Only the most arrogant, self-deluded person would attempt such a thing! I would never trust a product produced by a person like that!

      • It is my understanding the at King James Version Bible underwent only 2 revisions. It was published in 1611 and a revision was made in 1769, just to correct some spelling and minor grammar mistakes. I think this translation is the most accurate. It does not take out verse or water down the message like in modern Bibles. But I was quite taken aback that Jimmy Swaggart interjected his comments and ideas into the actual word of God in red lettering. I returned the Bible. It was very awkward and inappropriate!

        • You are right. I misspoke. It is 19 printing releases. As language changes, word spellings need to be updated. There is an argument for 4 actual revisions. But my point is that the revision process (as well as initial translation–done by around 50 different scholars over many years) wouldn’t be credible if it had been done by one individual(with no credentials)!

          Also, F. Dake, (writer of Dake’s Study Bible) sued Swaggart for plagiarism. An comparative analysis of the work demonstrated convincing evidence that Swaggart plagiarized much of his commentary. And his belief that God has given him this “new revelation” (message of the cross) drove him to interpret every scripture with that prevailing thought.

  36. Artista says:

    I watch SBN only to get a good laugh. Folks there are so brainwashed it’s amazing. This sharathon is more like scamathon or begathon. The evil Donnie exudes is scary. I can’t believe he was making people feel bad last night about not giving enough. “I’ve never seen such a slow Thursday night.” First everyone was excited and saying hallelujah for the $100 donations. Then $500. Soon after only the $1000 got more praise. Now that’s not enough. Give more! You can clearly see the fear and apprehension in even the singers and musicians. I feel bad for the Connely’s for they seem to be the only decent honest ones in there. You couldn’t pay me to be in Jill Swaggart’s place. Married to a nut, father in law evil, and grandfather in law holier than thou– all very controlling and abusive people. I was going to call to give a 1 dollar donation to see the reaction when finding out I’m 50 and not 3. Very dispicable people.

    • To me, SBN is my reality show entertainment, like watching Duck Dynasty! Every time I hear something outrageously stupid, incorrect or flat out untrue, I think it can’t get any worse…..until the next one comes down the pike! I have a hard time believing that they actually raise the amounts of money they claim. I have heard of ministries fudging numbers to make them look more successful. Their claims regarding the number of bibles they have sent seems innacurate! I can’t remember the quote they gave but it was over 6 figures, and I can’t imagine that they know of that many pastors who need free Bibles! Then they claim that the Expositors bible is the best selling Bible on the market, as if people were actually purchasing them. Yesterday, Jimmy S. Claimed he “won” the debate he had with the Muslim clerek several years ago (you can view it on YouTube). I saw that debate, if you could even call it that! It wasn’t one at all. Both Swaggart and the Muslim were terrible…no winner could be declared. Yet, Swaggart told the congregation and TV audience that he won! I really think Swaggart is delusional! He constantly talks about visions and dreams, and God telling him this and that, showing him things! Its really creepy! I don’t know how long they can stay on the air. I don’t understand how there can be enough people who believe in them and support their grandiose plans! It’s crazy!

      • You make some valid observations. As far as Pastors needing free bibles, think about it. They tell people that they have say 5,000 Pastors that need bibles and then people call in and buy these bibles to give away. JSM is making $20-$25 a bible so they will gladly “give them away” to 1 million pastors as long as the faithful keep calling in and paying for them.

        • David Sanchez says:

          As I posted before, I had to return my JSM Bible. I did not feel comfortable reading the Bible along with JS red lettering comments all over it. It did not sit right with me. Moreover, the commentaries were too repetitive, namely repeating The cross, The cross, The cross for a whole spectrum of scripture texts, either Old or New Testaments. For example, even if it said, ” Jesus was walking along the woods, ” Jimmy would interject “this meant the cross” to it. Actually, it felt quite amateurish. I just stopped watching SBN recently. The arrogance of the people there was a turn off. Additionally, I had recently googled the JSM to see what came up. I was shocked to find out the scores of scandals relating Jimmy Swaggart. I said, enough is enough.

          • Well, good for you! I’m surprised at the number of people who aren’t familiar with Swaggart’s history! I know some people criticize anyone who tries to bring up someone’s past, which shouldn’t be done if the person has asked for forgiveness and there has been reconciliation! And there is a BIG difference between a “private” person and a “public” figure concerning scandal! Since Swaggart rejected the discipline of his denomination, refused to explain himself when caught a second time (three years later) telling his congregation “it’s none of your business,” he has proven himself to be a person of poor and untrustworthy character! Additionally, he has separated himself from ANY oversight and/or accountability person in his life, claiming he only “listens to the Holy Spirit.” Right! On the one hand, he says he can’t do anything without the Lord, that we’re “nothing”, that man’s efforts are futile, etc. but then he believes that HE can accurately assess the voice of the Lord (with his frail, poor mind that all “men” have)! It’s contradictory, and frankly, crazy! At times, I think he is delusional! He relays “conversations” that he thinks he’s had with God, word for word! Dreams and visions, same thing! He is puffed up, proud, unteachable by any other human. Completely un-Biblical! So, he’s making a fool of himself! And taking a lot of foolish people with him. I’m glad to hear that you have used your God-given senses, and moved on! I pray that more will do so!

        • You’re right! I looked at their ad on the JSM website, and it states, “POSSIBLY, the fastest selling Bible in the world.” Interesting! They also claim over 1 million sold! They have to be counting the “donated” Bibles, considering where the Exp.Study Bible falls on the Amazon sellers list! During the Bible-thons, they never give any indication how much of the money is used for “postage and handling,” staff salaries, etc. It’s hard to believe that, based upon the amount of money collected and the number of Bibles purchased, there could be that many “pastors” awaiting a free Bible. They do this MONTHLY! Since no one knows for sure, I can’t imagine where all that money is REALLY going! Every month, they raise the telethon amount between $2-3 hundred thousand dollars! I noticed that they regularly fall about $2-3 hundred thousand short! So, they make up for it the next month, but push it another $2 hundred K! It’s incredible how their expenses can grow by that much over one month’s time! And, I don’t understand people who will blindly give without ANY information as to what the REAL needs are and how the money is used! For Ex: How many of the singers and pastors are on staff? What are their salaries? How much is taken in weekly at the church services? By mail? Book & music purchases? Camp meetings?

          I also wonder how many people actually follow through with their pledges. My guess is that most do follow through. Another interesting thing is the “media church” membership. Every week, they read off every name of every person who signs up (so they say). It sounds like hundreds of people sign up every week. They tell people that they are to pay tithes to FWC. It appears that they are reading off the names of several members of the same family, to make it look like they are all new individual accounts. Also, some of the names sound a little suspect….for ex: last Sunday a “Mary and Joseph” signed up from one city. I’ve heard some other rather unusual Biblical names, like Elijah, Adam and Eve, Abel, etc. Some of those could be real, but I wonder if some people aren’t signing up as a joke, or the Swaggarts’ add those names just to make it appear more are signing up. Who knows. But, the whole operation seems suspect!

  37. My mother got sucked into this terrible ministry, I have a hard time talking to her now because all she does is spew JSMisms at me and anyone else around her. She quit attending church several years ago so she could devote ALL of her time to watching this charlatan. She pushed all her friends away because in her eyes only Jimmy knows Gods word and they got tired of hearing it, JSM has literally consumed her life! I pray for some words that I could say to open her eyes to this so called ministries con game. What I truly believe she needs is de-programing like they used to do for the HaraKrischna’s. Because this looks to me like a terrible cult. I fear she is so far gone into this realm that like Jim Jones followers she would gladly drink a cup of tainted Kool-Aid if Jimmy told her to.

    • I know what you mean! I have spoken directly with several Jimmy Swaggart followers, and they ALL seem to be extremely defensive of him and the ministry! They all appear to be “in love” with Swaggart and/or “THE message of the Cross,” but they rarely talk about Jesus! It is very “cult-like,” I think what appeals to people like this is the idea that THEY possess something THEY think we haven’t got, but desperately need! It’s the idea of some “special knowledge” or “special revelation” that, for some reason, God has chosen to give to one person or a select number of people. It creates spiritual pride! I have never met a “smart” Jimmy Swaggart follower. Perhaps, this “special knowledge” really appeals to people who are uneducated, ignorant, etc. because people like this generally have very low self-esteem. So, there’s nothing more ego-boosting than to possess something “special.” I think it’s really sad, but this is promoted by the Swaggarts! None of them are very intelligent, or educated, for that matter!

      • I can’t believe your spiritual pride and self-righteousness. Try this on.The lie of Roman Catholicism has no intelligent people in it because they believe they have some special revelation from God? That is utter folly. I read a book by a Jesuit, obviously a dumby, who put a nasty Roman twist on reformation history. He also spoke 17 languages and taught in seminary. This was just one “no-body” in this vast empire of lies. Didn’t the pharisees also mock Christ? “Does any good come out of Galilee?”

        • I’m not sure what you’re trying to say…..or what you think I said. Roman Catholicism doesn’t claim “special revelation.” They claim they are the original Christian church with continuous apostolic authority….and that is true! I’m not Roman Catholic, but protestants have much in common with Catholicism, and we should focus on the things that unite us, rather than divide us. However, as far as intelligence goes, Catholics are very educated, and Catholic priests go through a much more rigorous education and seminary training than many protestant denominations…e.g. non-denominational, pentecostal, fundamentalist churches tend to have the least educated clergy! The result being churches like Swaggarts! They are exhibit 1! And, it seems like people in the deep south don’t value education that much. In fact, the Swaggarts and their followers seem to put down “education” and educated people….believing that somehow education is a disadvantage to having an authentic spiritual experience! I think it’s just the opposite! There is a ton of false doctrine, and a laziness in people who think like this….always expecting some supernatural intervention to solve a problem that can (and probably should be) solved by acting on one’s own behalf, or seeking help though counseling, psychologists, self-help groups, further personal Bible study, etc.

          • I said exactly what I intended to say. As for not being a Roman, yet defending them proves my point. Spiritual pride! You mock the Swaggart’s modus operandi yet kindly ignore Romish supperstitious slavery based upon “gradual” revelation over nearly two millenia. As for “The Church” not believing they have special revelation, you are gravely in error. Will a non-Roman “christian” make it to heaven without Romish sacraments? Your answer will show whether you are a Jesuit, or a mindless deceived pleb. Will you parry my comments, not answering ALL my points, concentrating upon “uniting” us all and casting aspersions upon a common enemy (Swaggart) – Jesuit. Or perhaps you’ll rant about your friends the Romans, of course you’re not one, and how lovely and intelligent the folk in the largest cult in history are? – Mindless deceived pleb. I’ll keep note of your bloggs more now, Jesuit Father.

          • You clearly have a problem! I don’t understand where such hatred comes from, especially by people who claim to be Bible-believing! I am critical of the Swaggarts for many reasons…one, the hypocrisy of Jimmy Swaggart, the arrogance of the entire Swaggart family (Jimmy, Donnie, Gabriel and Frances….can’t speak to the others), and the false doctrine they teach! All 3 things damage the cause of Christ. As far as Catholicism goes, I recognize that there are many differing doctrines and traditions in Christianity and most of these doctrinal differences are concerning “non-essential (to salvation)” doctrines. The most important common bond is the Orthodox Christian Doctrines that we all share! That is what we should celebrate. No one denomination or set of doctrinal beliefs, or no one person’s theology is 100% correct! (nobody can assume complete understanding of God….if that were possible, we would BE God)! A true Christian will have the humility to know that they are not right about everything, and be willing to be teachable and open to greater wisdom and understanding as they walk with Christ. Jesus said, “By this shall all men know you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” The Swaggarts demonstrate that they do not love ANYONE but themselves, their ministry, their beliefs, their interpretation of scripture, etc. They are haughty and proud. They can’t get through one program, one church service without criticizing someone or something outside of their world! You can go ahead and defend that, live like that….but you appear miserable, and that attitude will not draw anyone to Christ, and will not warm people to yourself! Let go of your need to criticize, to speak poorly of a part of the Body of Christ. God is doing miraculous work throughout the work…in many different denominations, countries, cities, and people’s hearts! God is a creative being….the Body of Christ is a beautiful tapestry of unique people who find creative ways to serve God and witness for Christ! Be a part of it! But, you won’t fit in if you constantly run down everything you don’t like, understand or agree with! Strive for common ground. Strive for an excuse to love and except, rather than look for the excuse to discard and reject!

          • Fascinating. You are critical of the Swaggarts for their gross error, me to if you bothered to check, while defending the lying devil of Rome which teaches salvation through itself alone! Roman Catholicism is a demonic lie. Any “bible believing” christian knows this by reading hundreds, read hundreds, of condemnations in scripture against all Rome teaches. You are a Jesuit! You have been outed! I wonder how many hundreds reading this banter between us are nodding in agreement now? Is Rome a “part of the tapestry that unites us” or is ita false way leading to damnation. Christ reproved HARSHLY! Many, many times. No doubt your bible has been altered to deny this. You say I have no love. Christ was crucified because he rebuked, reproved and corrected the “Rome” of his day!!! The traditions of man while ignoring God’s word were his rebuke. Travelling land and sea to make one proselyte while making him two fold the child of Satan! Oh please. Jesus was crucified because he rebuked! Answer that loving Jesuit Father!

          • Why don’t you just work on changing your own heart? If they are “the devil,” God will take care of them in the end. It’s not YOUR job anyway! Get your heart and mind on Jesus and His Word, and what you can do to serve Him on a daily basis. This kind of toxic hatred destroys YOU…it doesn’t do anything to or for anyone else! The Roman church isn’t going anywhere! Perhaps you should let it go! I’m not, nor ever have been Catholic. I’m female, so I can’t be a priest. I have Catholic friends who are delightful, loving people who love Jesus. That’s what I know for sure! I don’t know anything about you except you are full of hatred and anger. So sorry.

          • Yes Jesuit Father, I am full of hatred! I am also full of anger and intollerance! I declare this before God and man and I am biblical in doing this. Oh, I forgot to say what I’m intolletant, hateful and angry against. To be biblical I guess it would be against error! You know? Don’t you? Those things which claim to be “christian” yet proclaim another Jesus, another gospel. You know don’t you? The gospel? Yes. Yes. I am a bigot. It is fas inating how aggressive against me you are. You condemn me, who has killed, stolen from or destroyed the ruputation of no one yet defend the indefensible. The Roman Catholic lie! As cor your assertion that you are a woman. Hah. Newspaper stories always tell of police who catch paedophiles by getting into chat rooms pretending to be female! How’s that? A man claiming to be female. Nooooo! Surely not! Alas! It is true. A man lying, pretending to be female. I suppose that:s the weakness of the internet. It is easy to deceive. I suppose the “believer” will just have totrust the only “truth” there is to guide their soul. Rome?

          • R U a follower of JSM? What brought you here to comment on this blog?

          • Is the purpose of this blog to glorify Christ? Then expose that which hates him! If the sole purpose of this blogis to pull apart the Swaggart’s falsehoods, then it can’t be of God. Let all those who love God’s truth say amen. So are you a man pretending to be a woman? Obvious I think. You, again, answered nothing I asked, merely diverting attention. A typical jesuitical technique. Wylie wrote of you well!

          • You just confirm my point about the type of ministry the Swaggarts lead, and the kind of people they attract! You’re not a serious person, so there is no purpose in trying to converse. The Swaggaets come across on the air just like you have, except not quite as irrational. I predict they won’t grow much once the corner the market with the ignorant fundamentalists! That’s their congregation…. He preaches to “the choir” so to speak. It’s the fundamentalist Christians who keep getting “saved” over and over, and “refilled” with the speaking in tongues thing. No one else can figure out what the heck they’re talking about.

  38. David Sanchez says:

    I only watch “Insights” with John Rosenstern on SBN. But even he endorses everything Mr. Swaggart says. They are continually advertising the JSM Study Bible, having bibletrons periodically.

  39. T. Heim
    I agree that the Swaggart Ministry in problematic, However you are incorrect in stating that it is the fundamentalist that teach you speak in tongues and get refilled with the spirit. The fundamental camp are usually cessasional in doctrine meaning that they feel the gifts of the spirit have ceased, Tongues, prophecy, healing, word of wisdom, word of knowledge ect, ect. However the swaggarts have blended reformed fundamental theology with Pentecostal theology and created a real mess that makes very little sense to anyone. They have the dogmatic harshness of fundamentalist while minting that they are still Pentecostal. I would argue that they are far more like fundamental baptist than true Pentecostals.

    • In my experience, most fundamentalists are pentecostal. And, more and more churches are non-denominational. I define fundamentalism as a long list of additional, non-essential behaviors/doctrines one must follow in order to be truly “saved” or live an authentic Christian life (e.g. abstaining from alcohol, cigarettes, church attendance, styles of music). I don’t know of any pentecostals who are cessationists (seems like a contradiction in terms), although some pentecostals are dropping “speaking in tongues” as being a necessary sign for the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which is the correct Biblical stance, IMO). By “reformed” fundamental theology, do you mean reformation theology or Calvinism?
      The Swaggart’s are definitely NOT Calvinists!

      I wrote my “dissertation” on the Swaggart ministry on another area of this blog…”Jimmy Swaggart Falls By His Own Sword.” I’ve outlined the primary reasons why the Swaggarts are so off-base: arrogance and isolation! Every time I hear Swaggart speak (I just listened to 30 minutes of a sermon this morning), he goes off into these detailed stories of dreams, visions, and revelations he thinks he has with God on a regular basis. He’s truly deluded himself into thinking that He is the modern day Apostle Paul! He’s surrounded himself with loyal family and “yes men” who constantly reinforce his delusions. It’s hard to say whether or not they all believe Swaggart 100%, or they just go along for the paycheck! That’s why it’s important to know what the financial ties are with the ministry, how they spend their money, who’s on staff, what each are paid, etc. Because all of that is very telling regarding the motives, values and priorities of the organization.

      I think believers need a good dose of common sense! Non-denominational churches should be scrutinized carefully….doctrines and finances are the key! Charismatic leaders who get famous often want to “do their own thing.” Often, they become popular because of some unique “message” or “talent.” The more popular and successful one gets, the harder it is to listen to, and take advice or correction” from someone else. It’s human nature to resist accountability. And organizations, credentialing bodies, boards of directors, etc. all require accountability. This SHOULD BE self-evident, as history tells us that, more likely than not, the people at the top implode! It happens over and over…it’s more common than success. Billy Graham is one of the rare examples! I don’t know why people don’t study his playbook! God gave them wisdom, and they structured a self-imposed accountability system that worked! As believers, we need to stop wasting the resources God has given us, stop throwing much needed resources at organizations and people who are just getting wealthy, and hold leaders ACCOUNTABLE for what they SAY and DO!

      • I agree with most of what you are saying, so I’m not arguing but what you mean by fundamentalist is not really what they are. There may be some Pentecostals that act rigid, judgemental and mean like many of the fundamentalist. However the main thrust of fundementalisim is the literal interpretation of scripture and the inerrancy of scripture. The problem is they are they lift their interpretation above all others. Pentecostalism was really a total divergent from fundementalisim and as time has gone by Pentecostal have taken some of these unpleasant characteristics but the two are by no means intrinsically connected.

        When I say reformed I do mean Calvinist, while Jimmy will claim he does not believe once in grace always in grace his theology leaves no other conclusion. However Jimmy often takes it to an antinomian conclusion that Calvin would make Calvin cringe. In fact if you look at ” the finished work doctrine” it has it’s roots in reformed baptist theology. Jimmy view of sanctification. Is taken directly from this, in fact it was the finished work theory that split early Pentecostals down the middle back in the early 1900s. The Assemblies of God in which Jimmy belonged went this route as many of their early leaders were baptist that had received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and left the baptist church over tongues but retained much of their reformed tradition with a Pentecostal Flavor. You will find that the churches such as the church of God, Holliness Pentecostal church and church of God in Christ were strikingly different back in those days. They were formed from the Wesleyan tradition and were much more focused on being perfected in the Love of God than those going the more reformed route. While this is a subject I could write pages on I won’t bore with anymore details. However I am in total agreement with you that the swaggart ministry is completely off base. Just keep in mind that there are good and sincere people that follow them and God is patient kind and merciful. His purposes are redemptive and never vengeful. At times I wish many of these men that cause problems in the body would just be wiped off the map but that is not Gods way and while Inwill lovingly speak to people under the swaggart delusion I know and have seen first hand that only the Holy Spirit can open their eyes as to what is really going on there.

        • I can see where you get your “Calvinist” assessment of Swaggart’s teaching, however, he constantly contradicts himself. He says the “cross” is the answer to every problem man has. He says that Christ is the “source” and the cross is the “means.” But, he constantly talks about “sin!” He makes practically EVERYTHING sin (except for anything that HE does). He emphasizes confessing every sin stating that God won’t forgive unconfessed sin. And sin, by his definition, is always focused on “vices.” He never mentions sins of omission, sins of attitude/character. He admits we can’t get through a day without sinning, so we have to be constantly confessing and asking forgiveness. He definitely believes one can “lose” salvation. He even claims that if you use a prayer shawl or experience a Passover seder, you are committing sin! Any music, except for worship music (in his style, of course) is SIN! So, the logical conclusion of his view of the “message of the Cross” might be antinomianism, but his teaching does not support that. His teaching appears to be nothing but a bunch of semantics. It’s not practical! I don’t know how anyone can go away from any of JSM’s sermons, and know how to apply it to one’s life! His contention that “service” to others, fasting or any spiritual discipline for that matter is “works!” He actually believes that Christians and Churches that have community service programs, meal programs, homeless outreaches, caring for the sick, etc. are all “works of the flesh.” He carries it so far as to say it’s SIN, or it’s “putting Christ back on the cross” because he thinks it’s being done solely for the purpose of working for salvation! Preaching and singing are the only two things the “church” should do! I’ve noticed that all the ministers at JSM preach almost entirely from Paul’s writings and the Old Testament. If they preach from the gospels, they only talk about the “miracles” that Jesus did. They completely ignore the “teaching/preaching” of Christ himself, except for the times Jesus was angry or rebuked someone! It’s rather strange! They talk about God being “Love,” and they say “We love you” all the time, but it never appears/feels/looks like love. I think it really gets to me because it reminds me of the church I grew up in! It’s weird. When I ran across Swaggart on TV about a year ago, it was like I had walked into a 50 year time warp! The songs they were singing, the music, preaching, the way the people look (rarely does anyone smile), act, dress, etc. Wow! I’m so glad to be free of that environment! But, I feel sorry for the people who get caught up in that! My parents were uneducated (didn’t graduate from high school). Most of the church members were farmers. Uneducated and poor. That was the congregation. Swaggart’s followers are just like that (obviously some of them have money in order to raise $3M/month or more). It’s called spiritual abuse. I hate hearing stories like Mishel’s! The Swaggart’s behavior demonstrates that THEY DO NOT understand the “GOSPEL.” I assume that there are honest and sincere people in the congregation. I’m sure there are plenty of others like Mishel. I hope that people find the courage to get themselves out from that situation.

          One reason I feel so passionately about this is my own experience. The pastor of one of the churches I grew up in turned out to be a closet homosexual who was involved in promiscuous relationships for many years. Ultimately, he was fired for theft. He had been stealing money from the offerings. This was allowed to happen because the church board was weak, they allowed the pastor to handle all the money, they didn’t question his frequent disappearances to “bible studies” and “conferences” held out of town. The pastor of the other church divorced his wife and remarried another woman. Two of his three children rebelled and got into all kinds of trouble. So, I know human nature is what it is, regardless of how “spiritual” some folks appear. Swaggart is not trustworthy! The “red flags” are all over that ministry!

          • First off that is great to me that it seems you are open to God moving and working in peoples life through many different christian traditions, Pentecostal, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian ect,ect.

            As far as the full extent of Swaggarts theology it is a total contradiction. If you would have followed the ministry over the last 3 years you would have heard them go through a short phase where they taught there was no need for christians to repent as long as their faith was in the cross. They promoted Justification by faith by stating that if you are smoking a joint but your faith is in the cross then you are unphased as a christian. They went on to further complicate matters with confusion of terminology. They speak constantly of the “sin nature” and state that if you take your faith out of the cross the sin nature will dominate you and force you to sin. They state that satan can override your will, they still teach this, however they have steered away from the teaching that says you don’t need to repent. Joseph Prince still teaches that and really has very close teaching to that of what the swaggarts state. Jimmy and Loren Larson constantly state that when you accept christ your sins are forgiven “Past, present and future”. This is baptist eternal security theology. Sadly swaggart is unaware that if you are going to teach that then the only conclusion is that you can never lose salvation. Calvin himself would not have agreed with this because he believed in election or that some are predestined to salvation and some to damnation. However the question remains how do you know if you are elect? According to Calvin it is because you persevere till the end. Many Calvinist will site the scripture make you calling and election sure, they do this to discourage people from thinking we just sin and grace covers all. They also assert the only thing that “awakens the sin nature” is to “take ones faith out of the cross”, yet on the other hand I have heard them state that you can look at pornography and so long as your faith is in the cross your “sin nature” remains dormant. Very strange to say the least.

            Anyway, you certainly have picked up on the inconstant and erroneous teaching coming from the swaggarts but you literally could write a book several hundred pages long discussing the strange things that they teach.

          • You’re absolutely right about that….a very long book! I’m really quite surprised to hear that they had an antinomian position! You would never know to listen to them now. And, you’re right about how they conflate “sin nature” and “committing sin.” They definitely conflate and distort other doctrines as well, so it’s really difficult to describe exactly what they mean. I really don’t know what the people who follow him are getting!

            I definitely appreciate the “diversity” of tradition within Christianity! I don’t see God as limited as the Swaggart’s present Him. His creative power is at work in all of his creation, within nature and human beings! I believe that there are core, essential doctrines (confessions) that define “orthodox” Christianity, the absence of any creates something other than Christianity….basically the Apostle’s Creed, or Westminster confession of faith, etc. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, virgin birth, substitutional atonement, deity of Christ, etc. Outside of these is what creates the denominations, and I could live with most of them! And certainly, we are to have fellowship and support one another. As far as “personal revelation” or prophecy, word of knowledge, etc. I won’t deny they can and probably do occur, but I don’t believe they should have any impact on what I believe or how I behave! I am extremely skeptical of “speaking in tongues.” My experience is that I see little to no difference in the lives of people who claim to be “filled” and those who don’t. In fact, more often than not, those who claim to be filled have more problems with sin, etc than those who don’t. Most ministries who push the “baptism in H/S” are looking for the “phenomena” of “supernatural tongues” instead of fearlessness, strength, courage, power, for the gospel, and the “fruit” of the spirit! I never have heard ANY of the Swaggart ministers ever speak about the purpose for the “infilling” except for power over sin…or to experience “miraculous” supernatural signs.

            Just quickly, you mentioned Joseph Prince. The Swaggarts talk about him alot. I’ve listened to quite a few of his sermons, and I have not gotten the impression that he teaches you can “do or live” any ungodly live you wish after you’re saved. He definitely preaches grace in a beautiful way! I appreciate that so much, because I NEVER heard a sermon like that until I got to the Presbyterian church! I have understood that when we become Christians, Jesus blood covers all sin past, present and future! I think it’s impossible to name every single sin we commit. Besides, doesn’t sin mean “missing the mark?” I think if we’re truly born again, we desire to follow Jesus to the best of our ability. And we grow in His grace and love. But we still fail. If we die before we can ask forgiveness, I don’t think we are considered “lost.” I believe in the “preservation of the saints” to the extent that as long as our WILL is to follow Jesus, we are saved. But, my “free-will” theology tells me that if I can “decide” to accept Jesus, I can change my mind at some future time and walk away. In that case, just as God does not “force” us to accept Him, he cannot “force” us to stay. But, it would have to be a conscious, will-full act! Every time I hear a good message about grace, I get so thrilled and excited and motivated to love Jesus more and to do His Will! It never drives me to think “Oh, well I guess I can do what I want and go sin as much as I want.” NO, it seems to have to opposite effect! Just as it did when Jesus showed mercy and grace on sinners in scripture. People went away excited and joyful. So, I really don’t know what people worry about with people like J. Prince!

            I’ve enjoyed our conversation very much! I know this is time consuming, and I appreciate you time!

          • I am not that amazed at the ecumenical lie that this individual proclaims. This person, T Heim, ridicules Swaggart about his obvious errors yet is quite at home accepting the devilish traditions of Popery! Never a word of condemnation against idolatry, salvation by works or Romes’ slavery of Priestly reliance for absolution! How evil! By emphasising obvious errors of a common foe, then throwing a blanket over all else in ‘christianity’ and saying all core beliefs are alike in all traditions is gross error!!! It is also sin! How can Christ fellowship with Belial, or darkness with light! T Heim is an ecumenist who’s intent is to lead bible believing christians away from Christ to a neutral ‘we are one’ philosophy. The ecumenical lie, begun and promoted by Rome, is T Heim’s god! Swaggart does teach salvation by correctly. His error has built over decades, as has his avarice, leading to the same error as Judas Iscariot! Judas was a part of the twelve, yet lost his place because he became a thief. He rejected truth, and Christ, losing his soul. This is Swaggart’s error. Yet Judas was one of the twelve, called apostle, and had the power of God to cast out devils, lay hands on the sick, etc as shown in Matthew ten. T Heim promotes angst against Swaggart, a common distress to all reading this blog, while subtly unites ‘traditions’ as essentially being the same. T Heim is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. BEWARE!!!!!!

          • For some reason it would not allow me to reply to your last post so I will on this one. It has been nice to talk with you as well. I’ll explain a few final things from my perspective in this post.

            First Jospeh prince, I don’t worry much about him because his influence really isn’t tremendous but he preaches a very soft gospel with lots of wiggle room. He has mixed the same ” finished work of the cross” doctrine as Jimmy but given it a more positive spin and mixed it with more word of faith thought. He state in his book destined to reign that with your faith in the finished work there is no sickness, no poverty and no guilt of sin. This is word of faith he has just replaced their idea of speaking your blessing into existence with having faith in the proper object to reccieve your blessing. He states the object is the finished work of the cross. Ironically he too claims to have received this thru special revelation and even states that he believed the year was 1997 and the is the same year swaggart states that he got the revelation. Prince is not nearly as dogmatic and does not claim lofty apostolic authority the way swaggart does but their content is closely related.
            Prince says some good things at times and his lovely accent and upbeat disposition are very disarming. However I am not in agreement with his teaching.

            As a Wesleyan Pentecostal I of course believe in the charismata or the gifts of the spirit, can they be abused and misused? Yes absolutely and Paul deals with his extensively in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 and 13. Can I understand why you are skeptical of tongues? Yes and I don’t argue tongues with people because I care more about unity with the brethren and influencing people to pursue Christ than I don splitting hairs over tongues. Do I believe in tongues? Yes, however I believe there are many who claim to be filled with he spirit that are anything but. Many Pentecostal believe that tongues is the initial evidence one has been filled with the spirit. I don’t argue this point either but I can not find a better evidence in the book of acts. However lets suppose it is the intital “evidence”. Then what is the proof? I maintain it’s a heart filled with love and a life that exhibits the fruit of the spirit and a holy life free of sin. You also make a good point about boldness, strength and courage to spread the gospel. If we claim to be baptized in the spirit as they were in acts we need to see it has had the same effect upon us as it did them. And if not maybe many of us Pentecostal need to reevaluate what we received.

            I will also have to disagree on the statement our sins are forgiven past present and future. I understand where this idea comes from and I certainly understand why it gains traction with people. It’s roots are in reformed theology which states that we always remain inherently sinful and are never really delivered from original sin, that nature or inclination always remaind therefore Christ must have forgiven even our future sins when we accept him because after all were going to sin because we are all just sinners saved by grace. ( that particular statement would fall more in the southern baptist camp) I don’t see it that way. I believe that this is a misunderstanding of redemptive provision and redemptive application. Provisional yes all sins have been atomed for in the death and resurrection of Christ. But that does you no good unless sin is confessed and forsaken. Also I do not believe that if you have some unknown sin that you have not confessed you will go to hell. However I see a great danger in pressing this doctrine to its furthest conclusion which is once in grace I’m always in grace, all sins are covered even my future ones. While I am not saying that you or many others take it to this extreme I assure you many do. It’s my opinion that upon accepting Christ my sins are forgiven past and present. However any sins I commit in the future of which I am aware of not a sin of omission or something that I’m not aware of, needs to be confessed and turned away from. I believe that we can be cleansed of all sin. 1 John 1:9 says we can. However I don’t not feel we are ever at a place of freedom from all temptation or have some super human inability to sin. But temptation is not sin, Adam was tempted in a perfect state, Jesus was tempted. However to me as a Wesleyan sanctification or holiness is a return to the freedom that Adam once enjoyed. He was free to fellowship with God and choose obedience. I believe faith worthy by love and the more of a gods love that reigns in our heart the stronger we are to resist sin and live righteous and holy in the present world as Paul said in Titus 2:14. Well I could go on and on but I’ll stop. God bless you my brother and it was great chatting with you.

      • Out of curiosity T. Helm what denominational tradition do you align with?

        • Hi John,

          I was raised (from birth to mid-teens) in a non-denominational pentecostal church (heavy on “gifts of the spirit in operation), which was definitely fundamentalist (by both of our definitions, i.e. inerrancy, literal interpretation, young earth, no drinking, smoking, dancing, card playing, make-up, etc). From mid-teens to early 20′s, I was involved with a non-denominational (but affiliated with Open Bible Standard Churches) pentecostal (charismatic) church that was definitely not cessationist, but the operation of the gifts of the Spirit was not encouraged in church services! I relocated to the west coast from the midwest, and didn’t really get involved with any church, just hopped around for a while until I stopped going altogether. I went through a period of questioning everything, took a lot of “religion” classes in college, and basically ignored God for several years. Currently, I’m a member of a Presbyterian Church (PCA-the “conservative” branch). It’s definitely reformed (Calvinist), although at the time I joined, I didn’t know what “Calvinism” was! I’ve always been very interested in theology, religious studies, etc. I’m related to a well-known Arminian theologian. He has a great blog, which I read regularly, and learn a great deal from. My “definition” of fundamentalist came from him, although I should clarify that it wasn’t a complete definition….he would agree (as I do) that fundamentalism includes inerrancy, narrow & literal interpretation, and a long list of “thou shalts” and/or “thou shalt nots” as essential to salvation. As far as my personal theology goes, I’m definitely not a 5-point Calvinist. I believe in prevenient grace, rather than irresistible grace (the “I” in TULIP). I take the approach that it’s as important to know as much about what I don’t believe as I know about what I do believe, keeping in mind that I could be wrong! I don’t understand people who approach the vast subject of God (who they believe is omniscient, omnipotent etc.) and think they possess complete and accurate knowledge of Him and His Ways! I expect to grow in knowledge of Him until “we know as we are known!” I just read a great book by Austin Fischer called “Young, Restless and No Longer Reformed!” I love Fischer’s humility of spirit as he takes the reader through his journey of examined faith.

    • I couldn’t reply to your post either….don’t know why! Thanks for your last post…I appreciate it! It’s hard to end the conversation sometimes! :>) I take you points, clearly! I haven’t read anything by Prince, and according to the quote you gave, I would have to question some of his doctrine as well. And I am surprised that he believes it to be revelation, and the same year as Swaggart! Strange! Perhaps by revelation, he means that it was an “ah ha moment” when a light-bulb comes on. I could buy that…meaning his understanding of “grace” and the atonement became clearer. Who knows! Swaggart does go much further, even relating a word for word conversation, etc. Prince is definitely not as arrogant, but I have heard the same questions raised from many other credible sources as well. This is why I think it’s so important not to be a “personality” follower, and isolate into a sole ministry.

      I hear what you’re saying about sin and forgiveness, past, present and future. I’m just not sure. Scripture can be interpreted to support or reject “eternal security.” I would never be so cavalier as to think I could live an un-biblical, indiscriminate life and still make it to heaven, but on the other hand, I don’t think we can live a life of “freedom” in Christ, without “condemnation” (Romans 8:1), and constantly be worried about unconfessed sin! Can an individual be “saved” and struggle with an addiction problem? Is an alcoholic “lost” when they relapse or are actively drinking, and only be “saved” when they’re sober? The Swaggart’s would say they are lost (of course they believe merely drinking alcohol is a sin). Or, a Christian couple having sex before marriage (let’s say they’re engaged)? Or, here’s an interesting one: What about Christians who divorce AND remarry? The Bible clearly teaches that, even if you could argue for a divorce “exception” for adultery or “hardness of heart,” remarriage is forbidden (it’s adultery-as long as the divorced spouse is living). So, aren’t those who remarry (or a single person who marries the divorced person) “living in” adultery? This sin is so common that most Christians don’t view it as sin anymore. And churches, Christians, ministries will overlook this sin, allow these adulterers to serve in leadership positions, some even pastor churches! And, one of the sad truths is that we have taken a stand against homosexual marriage by citing the Biblical prohibitions for it, YET we look the other way when it comes to adultery! This looks bad. It’s a double standard, and makes us look like we are just discriminating against homosexuals, rather than a true desire to adhere to God’s plan for marriage! If we believe that the Christian couple who commits adultery through remarriage can ask and be forgiven while continuing to live in adultery, then why can that NOT be true for a same-sex, monogamous couple? There was a recent article quoting Kirstin Power’s, a commentator for Fox News, stance on gay marriage (she recently “came out” as a convert to Christianity). Her position is that she believes the church WILL eventually accept same-sex, monogamous couples for marriage in the church, just as we have accepted adultery by divorce/remarriage! I thought she made a brilliant point! What was interesting was the over 2700 comments following the article…very eye-opening, and disappointing from my perspective, as the self-described “Christians” who were quoting scripture all over the place presented themselves in such a hateful, angry, ugly way! Most of them completely missed the point Power’s made!

      I guess I still have a lot of questions about the “sin nature” and sinning after salvation. It seems like the non-Calvinist view makes it seem worse for the believer “after” they’re saved. It seems like there is more judgment on the Christian, more “worry” about one’s status before God. It makes it seem more like Catholicism, that one needs to go to confession and can never be “sure” they are going to heaven! I think that doctrine is harmful! But, pure Calvinism (thinking you can sin any way and still be saved) doesn’t seem correct either. One thing that really bothers me (no matter who does it) is saying who definitely IS or IS NOT, or WAS NOT saved! The Swaggarts are so guilty of this…they even boldly name Old and New Testament characters and say whether or not they died saved or lost! I just think it’s so incredible that anyone would make a claim like that, as they are saying they KNOW someone’s heart at the time of death!

      If you have time for any more thoughts, I would definitely be interested, esp. on the adultery vs. homosexual relationships. Thanks!

      • Ill be glad to share my thoughts, it will probably be quite rather long and I have not had time to sit down and do it yet.

        • No problem! Whenever you have time, it will be much appreciated!

          • The questions you raised are some very difficult ones to nail down. First Ill state right up from that I do not profess to have every solution. However I do believe scripture gives examples where divorce is not sin. In Matthew 19:9 Jesus says that the exception is sexual immorality from a spouse. In 1 Corinthians 7:12-15 it seems Paul says that if you have a spouse that is not a believer then you need to stay with them if at all possible, but If they depart from you then ” A brother or a sister is not in bondage in such cases”. So it seems to me there are 2 biblical cases where you can be divorced and free to remarry. Certainly some could debate the second reason that I have cited but the case of a unfaithful spouse is not debatable in my opinion.

            So according to scripture it is my opinion that any divorce that falls outside these biblical grounds is divorce that should not be tolerated in the church so far as Ministers are concerned. That leaves the question what about the person that commits adultery and leaves his wife and marries another woman only to come under conviction for his sin some years later and repent and dedicate his life back to Christ. Can this person be forgiven? In my opinion the nature of Grace would have to say yes, I can’t think that the man would not be able to be forgiven. So what about his first wife? Now that he has repented he must feel sorrow for his unfaithfulness and wouldn’t this affect his new marriage? In short yes, and all I can say is that sin always has consequence even if later we come to repentance and receive forgiveness the consequences of our sin are still present, God does not magically wipe these away. David is an example of this, he repented for his adultery and it is obvious that it was sincere. Psalm 51 is Davids prayer for forgiveness and restoration. God had mercy on David and forgave him but David lived with consequences of that sin the rest of his life. 11 SAMUEL 12:10 States that because of the sin the sword would never depart from his house. So while I can’t reconcile everything I think that it has to depend on the heart and repentance of an individual. That being said Ministers that directly violate this biblical order and leave their wife to remarry, I personally don’t believe they should be in church leadership. Randy and Paula white are examples of this, they worked together as associates at a church in washington DC. They had an affair and left their respective partners and married each other. They left the denomination that they were in and went independent and started a church in Tampa. Things went well for a while but then they too divorced for no stated reason and have again caused reproach and confusion on the Body of Christ. Can they still be forgiven and make heaven their home? I believe so but I would not want them to ever Pastor again after an established history of Marital unfaithfulness. One thing that is certain is that Jesus takes marriage very seriously and we should take marriage vowels seriously and strive to keep a healthy marriage. I have had some people try to Justify divorce by saying it was a mistake and i don’t think it was Gods will for me to marry them and now I want out. My response is, if it was not Gods will on your way down the aisle then it was when you said your vows and came back up.

            Now as far as homosexuality. First off how wonderful that Mrs. Powers says that she has given her life to Christ. One thing I have to keep mind is that people come to Christ from all different walks of life and Mrs. Powers was an atheist and extremely liberal so I would not expect her to turn into a christian that is culturally like many southern Christians, such as give me Guns, and God and tell the government to get out. That being said Im not really going to try and interpret what Mrs. Powers was trying to say concerning homosexuality. I would hope that she is not stating that God is ok with homosexuality and therefore eventually the church will catch up and be ok with it as well. I understand the church has muddied the line on divorce and that there is much sin that is ignored in this day in time. However in my view these are unbiblical compromise that needs to be called to repentance. It is not grounds to Justify further sin such as homosexuality.
            The bible is clear that Homosexuality is sin. Romans 1:24-27 is an example of this however there are many other examples of which I will not take the time to expound upon. So the idea that 2 people can have a monogamous Homosexual lifestyle and be ok because the church has overlooked adulterous relationships that have resulted in marriage is unbiblical. As to the question of people that have divorced and remarried I have to leave their should in the hands of the Judge, his word is clear on marriage but as to if they return to christ and find forgiveness only the Lord really knows. However marriage was instituted by God, so if a person left their wife and remarried and then later repented and got right with God then I have to think that they are now right with God as this is the nature of Grace. Does this mean God condoned their past divorce? No but God has not condoned any of our past sin, however I acknowledge the question of divorce and remarry is tougher than others. However to live in a homosexual lifestyle is all together and completely incompatible with scripture and true biblical christianity. Therefore there is no way for this individual to be right with God unless the repent and allow God to heal their perversion. So it is my stance that homosexuality is incompatible with christianity. Just as adulterers, fornicators and drunkards. The bible is clear that those who do such won’t enter Gods kingdom. The biggest problem I see in the relationship of the church to Homosexuality is that we either condemn them and are hateful to them or we totally compromise the scripture and tell them its ok. We should not fail to proclaim the truth of scripture but should do so in love. We should not try to drive homosexuals to christ by telling them how wicked they are, we should draw them to Christ through love and let God convict, touch and change their heart. The woman at the well is a beautiful example. Jesus did not approve of the lifestyle that she lived but he did not condemn her, he lovingly exposed her sin and her eyes were opened.

            Lastly as to sinning after salvation. Here is my stance on sinning after salvation. Can we sin after salvation? Yes. Do we? Yes. When we repent does God forgive us? yes. We have a standing in christ which is justification, but maturity and sanctification in many cases takes time. Do we have to sin? I don’t believe so. In I john 1:9, he said if we confess our sin he will forgive and cleanse from ALL unrighteousness. In 2:1 he said little children I write into you that you sin not. So I believe Gods desire is to cleanse us from all sin, I thessolonians 5:23. May the God of peace sanctify you Wholly or entirely. Your Body soul and spirit. Wholeness for the whole man is what God wants. To reorder our affections and desires that are sinful and conform them to his holiness. Freedom in Jesus Christ. So if we sin, we ask forgiveness, this Is part of a life of continued repentance or turning from sin and turning to God. This is a very short and very condensed response. Ill be glad to discuss further but I have to run at the moment. God bless

          • John,
            I recopied this, as for some reason, it posted to James’ thread. I am not sure if you’ve seen it! I apologize if you’re getting this twice!

            Thank you so much! Excellent response(s)! I read your response to James as well. I agree with you completely regarding the peaks and pitfalls of “ecumenical” and on Church governance. I think people forget that the Bible doesn’t spell out everything, and not everything in the Bible is “prescriptive!” Some is just descriptive.

            I agree strongly with your last paragraph on sinning after salvation. I believe as we grow in the Lord, He reveals areas of our lives that are problematic/sinful and, as we surrender our will, we are changed, perfected, become more Christ-like. I think where many go wrong is the focus on “acts of sin” as in vices, moral/character failure, etc. But, becoming more Christ-like not only involves abstaining from sinful acts, but “acting” more like Christ…less selfishness, more giving, more self-sacrifice, less wasting our time on “things below” rather than on the Kindgom of God, and also, fully enjoying the beauty of life, God and His Creation. The Arminian theologian I mentioned earlier (my relative) recently wrote a multi-part blog series on “The Christian World-view” (including a: is there such a thing? b: if so, what is it? c: how does it differ with “confession of faith” etc). It was very interesting. One of the bullet points is: “the glory of God is the human fully alive!” I believe God’s desire is for us to exist is this perfect state: sinless, disease free, healthy and whole in mind, body, spirit, and in vibrant, unbroken, loving fellowship with God, enjoying Him completely! This relationship begins when we say Yes! to Jesus, and culminates at the resurrection, continuing for eternity! So, our “walk” with Christ on earth is the beginning of our eternal life, as we are changed from “glory to glory.” It’s not just about “not sinning.” It’s loving people like Jesus loved them…which I could argue is more difficult than abstaining from sin! Fundamentalists (like the Swaggarts) justify their “legalism” with the verse “Love not the world, neither the things of the world……” I’m sure you know how it goes. Their definition of the “world” is vices e.g. drinking alcohol, smoking, nightclubs, casinos, movie theaters, dances, etc. I think God meant loving the “values” of the world, e.g. power, greed, wealth, lust, pride, as satan is the prince of this world. We are to “value” the “kingdom of God” more than we value our personal “kingdom’ in this world. I think it’s sinful to strive after money and wealth, power, recognition, influence over people under the “cover” of preaching the gospel! I think it’s as sinful to eat poorly, not exercise, over exercise, fail to rest properly, etc, as it is to abuse alcohol or drugs, etc. I think it’s sinful to be MORE religiously diligent about church “attendance” than it is to be faithful to fulfilling your obligations to your family, or seeing that the needs of people around you are met, etc. In my experience, the less I focus on myself, the more time I have to “look for” and/or become aware of needs around me, and when I’m involved with meeting those needs, I have less time to get “involved” with sinful endeavors. The Holy Spirit within us guides us in the right “kingdom” direction. He empowers, provides wisdom, comforts, etc. Scripture tells us that we’ve been given the “armor of God,” and if we put it on, we can defeat what Satan brings against us. God has provided the “tools.” These are the tangible things that I wish Swaggart et al would preach/teach about, instead of saying “the cross, the cross, the cross! I wonder who they think their audience is? They try to sound like they are teaching a seminary class on a deep, theological topic. Swaggart said such on yesterday’s program, claiming “the message of the cross is so deep that it goes over the head of most pastors, most christians.” That’s why they had to keep saying it over and over, every day, until people “get it!” (whatever “IT” is). Anyway, enough on that…

            I would like to go back to your comments on adultery / homosexuality. The White’s are just one perfect example of un-Biblical remarriages and divorces! As you are probably aware, there are some theologians/pastors who don’t believe that Jesus was giving an “exception” for divorce, defining that reason as unfaithfulness of one partner. That “exception” only appears in one account (Matthew 19). Some this that the Greek word “porneia” can mean sexual immorality prior to the marriage, or during the betrothal period (the wife turns out not to be a virgin, so married under false pretenses). It does seem strange that Jesus would give an “excuse” for divorce, when, based on his teachings on forgiveness, redemption and grace, and God’s “hate” of divorce, it would be required (especially if both partners are christians) to forgive and reconcile (which is the case in many circumstances)! Violence, abuse would be much more “reasonable” reasons for a divorce “exception.” And the most common teaching that I’m aware of concerning Paul’s passage in Corinthians is that he was addressing the issue of couples who were already married before they became a Christian. The church was thinking that the believing spouse should divorce the unbelieving spouse to prevent being “unequally yoked.” Paul said no, if the unbelieving spouse wants to stay married, they should stay married. So, bottom line, the Bible is against divorce, and they may/may not be any exceptions. (The truth is, most marriages end for reasons other than adultery). However, if a divorce allowed, the couple is NOT released from the vows. Therefore, remarriage is out of the question (unless you remarry your spouse). Which means celibacy for life, or until one spouse dies! If Bible-believing Christians really believed this, don’t you think the end result would be fewer divorces? or perhaps more careful consideration with selecting a spouse? Would the marital problems be considered so horrible, if the individuals were facing life-long celibacy? I think that when the divorce rate among CHRISTIANS is no different than the rest of the population, we’re demonstrating just how “seriously” we actually take the Word of God. We have demonstrated that we are going to do what we want to do (hardness of heart), and even if by remarriage we commit adultery, well, God forgives, right? Yes He does! I certainly understand that “two wrongs don’t make a right.” Both homosexuality and adultery are sin. BUT, you appear to believe that one can be forgiven and one cannot. It appears that you believe that homosexual sin is “worse” than heterosexual sin. You said that we have to “leave it in the hands of the Lord.” So, if we don’t know what the Lord thinks of people living in adultery, how can we say we know what the Lord thinks of people living in a same-sex relationship? It is definitely “up to the Lord” so to speak, but I believe our doctrines, our behavior toward sinners has to be consistent! I mean, there is more to a homosexual couple’s relationship than just sex! Medical science can’t currently tell us exactly why /how this deviation occurs. There is much more going on here than just a “simple choice.” People are choosing a same-sex relationship because they are somehow being driven to it! When we think about our heterosexual desires, and how “natural” they are, isn’t it possible that homosexuals have this same “natural desire?’ We can’t get into each other’s heads to know what it’s like for the other, and sexuality is a very basic, and emotionally charged issue. I have personally been touched by divorce, remarriage and homosexuality within the lives of close family members. We are Christians, and know what the Bible teaches. But we also know and see how the “body of Christ” is dealing with these issues in practical terms. And there is a very clear message….there is “forgiveness, tolerance, grace and acceptance for adultery (heterosexual sin), but not for homosexual sin! Is it any wonder why the church has no credibility on this issue? The world doesn’t respect the church and what it has to say about marriage, because of the lack of respect we have for “God’s design” for marriage! It looks like we just don’t like homosexuals! I really believe that the “church” is being confronted by our own lax behavior. I have lived, worked and had friendships with many homosexuals. One couple has been together for 30+ years! They are sweet, decent, loving, caring, interesting people. Most of them aren’t believers, but they’re not likely to become believers when they see how hostile the church is toward their lifestyle, but how tolerant the church is toward heterosexual adulterers! And I can’t help but think that, if they did accept Christ, would Christ make them break up a 30 year relationship in order to “stop sinning?” If we think so, then the same would have to apply to an adulterous, 30 year heterosexual marriage. Otherwise, that is a double standard…hypocrisy…and wrong, in my opinion! If I can have a relationship with Jesus Christ, find forgiveness, be blessed, serve in the church, all as a remarried, divorced person, I can’t imagine that cannot be true for my family members who love God and are burdened with same-sex attraction. I’m not denying that a person with same-sex attraction cannot be “healed” or changed, and I think that a serious Christian (fully desiring to do the Will of God and follow Christ) would/should choose that path. It’s clear some of them do, but after years of “struggling,” will give up and enter a homosexual relationship. But, those who don’t, shouldn’t they be extended “grace” and “understanding” just like a heterosexual divorced person who cannot see themselves living without companionship and sex for the rest of their lives?

            As you said to James, life isn’t “black and white!” It’s messy! I know it easy, and many of us desire to live by absolute, concrete truth! It’s easy to say “that’s right, that’s wrong.” But, we’re dealing with imperfection, with complex human beings, with a fallen and sinful world, with people who have wide variations in weaknesses and abilities. The answers aren’t easy. But, I do know that, as Christians, we are to deal with everything in a loving, compassionate, understanding way, always considering how WE would like to be treated! I don’t expect you to have an “answer!” But, ever since I read the article about Power’s comments (actually, much further back than that…when it came to my attention that a dear loved one was gay), I have really been looking for answers, and I really didn’t like what I saw coming through the comments of “Christians” on that blog! This is a “hot” topic right now in the church, and I think we have dealt with it poorly.

            I don’t know what you think of Rick Joyner and Morningstar ministries (I think he’s a false prophet), but he has an association with a “faith healer/revivalist” named Todd Bentley. Bentley recently divorced his wife (they have 2 children), and married an “intern” from his ministry. This caused an uproar in the church (for which I’m grateful…at least some still hold to Biblical principles). Joyner posted a series of videos on his website documenting the “restoration process of Todd Bentley.” It’s totally ridiculous….Joyner and Bentley go on and on about how God hates divorce, THEY hate divorce, etc. Joyner even claims that “GOD IS DIVORCED.” (I guess because He “divorced” Israel). He claims that God and Israel will be “remarried” in the future, so somehow that’s how divorce and remarriage is justified! APOSTATE! Anyway, now that they went through these “hours and hours” of rehashing all the reasons for why he divorced (still didn’t justify the remarriage part), they said he’s “restored” and ready to minister again…along with the new, younger wife! I find it despicable! At the same time, of course, they speak out AGAINST gay marriage! I’ve seen videos of Bentley’s “miracle” revivals! They are crazy! In one, his wife claims she had a dream/vision where Oral Roberts came and spoke to her and prophetically revealed some things to her (totally anti-Biblical). In the middle of her story, she starts rapidly twisting her head back and forth, whipping her long hair back and forth violently! She gave no explanation why that happened. She kept going on with her story, then would start with the head/neck whipping thing….it looked like demon possession! Anyway, they are still going from city to city in the US holding their “revivals!” I guess he’s pretty well-known in “pentecostal” circles.

            I look forward to hearing from you whenever you have time. By the way, are you a pastor or seminary professor or teacher of some sort? You seem to be quite knowledgeable about Biblical issues. I’m a lay person, involved with the worship team and Bible studies etc. at my church. And I’m surrounded by theologians & pastors in my personal life! God Bless!

          • Aren’t there any christians out there reading this blog who will weigh in and earnestly contend for the faith? Stop sitting on the fence and stand ye as men!

  40. T. Helm,
    I can’t figure out why we can reply to some post and other we can’t so I’ll just post new down here at the bottom. First off you and James are having quite a conversation! I truly don’t want to be negative about James but I would suggest ending all conversations with him. He reads what he chooses inserts what he wants and refuses to evaluate the subject that being discussed and elects for diatribes against Rome. BTW if you read this James I am not in agreement with the Roman Catholic system, however I believe that in spite of erroneous doctrine and practice there are many Catholics that have found a relationship with Jesus and will be in heaven. Do I know how many? No possibly not even a large percentage in comparison to all that have lived but I would venture to say far more than you think.

    Alright first on the divorce subject, I personally believe that infidelity is biblical grounds for divorce. It is my belief that when Jesus was ask about why did Moses allow divorce and Jesus said because of hardness of heart he was then referring to situations where the woman was found not be be a virgin and the man them wanted to put her away. However I feel that infidelity after marriage is grounds for divorce if the offended partner feels they can not get over the situation. That being said I know we were discussing situations where a person divorced with no biblical grounds and remarried. You bring some interesting perspectives and while I will not change my position on Homosexuality I will say that divorce is taken way to lightly today. I believe one reason why divorce is so high among Christians is because we have a significant amount of nominal christianity today. People who are Christians in name only. However I do acknowledge that there are many true Christian people who have been through a divorce. I’m these cases I will just have to say that I can’t know with 100% certainty what The Lord will judge them for if they have divorced and remarried. If they truly repent and are already in another marriage is their soul damned because they are look at as living in continual adultery? It is my opinion and I will state my opinion that I’m those cases God forgives their sin of divorce and honors their new marriage. However are there many that are in the situation that continue going to church and never truly repent and will end up in hell? Probably that’s where I just have to let God be the judge because he is a just and righteous ruler. So my stance is that because Marriage is Gods order and family model if a person finds repentance and that is true repentance then in my mind it’d possible for God to honor that marriage. In the case of Homosexuals there is no way that they can find forgiveness because they are not turning from a lifestyle of sin. It’s like a drunkard saying I want to continue to be a drunk but have God forgive me while I continue to live in my sin. The bible is clear that true Christians don’t practice sinful living. 1 john 3:8-10. But I will absolutely admit that to divorce your wife or husband and remarry while the previous spouse is living is considered adultery as Jesus taught, so can the status of that marriage change in Gods eyes if one or both parties repent and recognize the wrong that they did and turn to God for redemption in the mess that they have made? I guess I’m the end I just can’t say. However I do feel strongly that you can not live a homosexual lifestyle and be right with God. I know and have known some people that are Gay and most of them are very nice. I don’t dislike gays at all, but I can’t approve of their lifestyle. And the same could and should be said of a heterosexual that live a life of fornication both are equally sinful lifestyles.

    As to Todd Bentley, my opinion is that they are a complete circus show. It baffles me that anyone would get involved with the things that take place in that crowd. I would have to agree they are apostates and it is sad that they use the label Pentecostal. While I am a Pentecostal I am growing increasingly indifferent to labels, because while myself and Todd Bentley could both be lumped under the label ” Pentecostal” we could not be on more opposite ends of the universe. The foolishness that takes place with them should be self explanatory to people yet some people are gullible enough to listen to what they have to say. He has no place being in ministry he has been caught living a sinful lifestyle and chances are he still is doing so.

    Your last paragraph ask if I was a minister. Yes I am I have been a pastor however I am currently an evangelist traveling through many different states and as far as education I have bother undergrad and seminary degrees in theology so I have studied it quite extensively at least compared to yup average church goer. However compared to the academics that have devoted their life to theological study I’m no where close. It is sad for me as a minister to see how most Christians has no understanding of theology and therefore have no idea what kind of framework they are being instructed in from some of their favorite TV preachers. But it is just part of the day and time which we live. God bless you T. Helm. I pray that The Lord Jesus Christ would draw you to heights of his love that you have never known. May the richest blessing of his beautiful grace that he so freely gives abound in your life. I pray that he answers questions that no man could fully settle in your mind and that he strengthens you and equips you for the journey ahead. Amen.

    • Yes John. End all conversation with me. As well as Father Helm. I clearly don’t know how to love as jesus loves. I believe I follow Jesus, not jesus. The church is totally apostate. When I return, will there be faith in the earth? You see, how you believe dictates your actions, world view, associations and fellowship to name a few. Your world view determines whether or not you believe Jesus is returning. If he’s not, then living in this world is the imperitive, with its incumbent associations. It is impossible for any Roman Catholic to enter into eternal life. Roman doctrine cannot lead anyone to Christ. All who have commented on this topic clearly have no concept of Romish supperstition, and how it has developed over the millenia. Again, I have no problem with Roman Catholics. They just can’t go to heaven. Hindus can’t either. Romans are as idolatrous and superstitious as Hindus. Hindus must repent of their sin and believe God raised Christ from the dead to be saved. Romans 10:9-10. Roman Catholics must do the same. Once saved, can a Hindu continue in their temple worship offering sacrifice to the idols? When one gets saved the old man is dead. Can I continue in sin, so grace can abound? God forbid! I feel no angst whatever against anyone I have conversed with whatsoever, but I won’t abide anyone claiming Christ, while promoting error. I prefer to earnestly contend for the faith. T Heim claims association with Presbyterians. What I have said aligns a lot closer with historical Presbyterianism than anything T Heim has stated. He would not even be allowed in a fellowship historically! The truth is the folk I have been conversing with are not my brethren. Pure and simple. I don’t class as such because we believe in two separate Christs. There is coming together. No meeting of minds. As for not answering all points, I have stated twice, this makes thrice, that I’m using a smart phone and the browser allowing feedback doesn’t show the comment I’m responding to. Some comments are quite lengthy so unless I’m taking notes I can’t remember all the points posed to me. Using a PC would solve this dilema however that facility is not available to me. Mocking me as not able to comprehend, or even being selective as to what answer, is a little ridiculous. I would point out T Heim doesn’t respond to all my points either. Not by half. Anyway, I’ll still comment continuously as required.

      • Thank you for you participation James your viewpoints are quite unique. You really should settle down on deciding who is going to hell who isn’t, you may just be surprised one day to find both I and T. helm have a relationship with Jesus. I actually agree with you that Catholics don’t get saved by following Catholic doctrine but they do read scripture and the Holy Spirit is able to draw people to salvation in that manner. I know I have broken my own suggestion about responding to you, but please don’t take it personal the only reason I say that is that you and I are not going to agree or share the same views so there is no point. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

        • Thank-you John. Your recognition the Romans aren’t saved through Roman doctrine is a quantum advance over what T Heim has alluded to in his posts. I remember one quote as “I know several Roman Catholics, and their nice people.” It was lame defence that Romans are christian to. Anyway, nice mature approach in gaining advantage in our correspondence. I even liked your marginal condescendance.

        • this is what I dont understand Jimmy says the lord revealed him to preach the Message of the Cross well why would God reveal something thats all ready been reaveled everyone thats a child oc God should know the message of the cross thats why I think he is scanning people because when he fell his church went down to nothing Jimmy aint no dummy he had to come up with something new well it aint new its the same thing he preached way back in the 70,80s but I guess some of these folks dont know what he did and when I look back at the old shows is all them people gonna be loss cause he didnt preach the right thing I listen to the music of everyone but Jimmy and Robin and i flip thre channels

    • John,
      Thank you! What a lovely blessing! Thanks for all your thoughtful and wise responses! Much appreciated! I will hold you and your ministry in prayer! May God bless and keep you in His grace and love!

      • Your feigned solidarity amuses me. You are two peas in a pod. Comparing themselves with themselves, they became fools! Pray for those who hate you and despitefully use you. Those pesky words in red!

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