JSM- Masters of the Sweep

Three years ago I moved from North Carolina to Baton Rouge to begin a job as Webmaster for Jimmy Swaggart Ministries. I did not know much about the ministry, but I needed a job and the idea of working for a ministry seemed appealing. The Swaggart’s seemed nice enough at first, but I was soon to find out that this kindness was only offered in exchange for my complete loyalty and subjection to totalitarian-like control.

In the days and weeks after moving to Baton Rouge, I was perplexed at the oddity of my everyday encounters with ministry employees. People seemed burdened and stressed. When smiles were given, they were the stiff and sterile kind, not the kind that invades your face, and crinkles your eyes. In my mind it should have been the most joy filled environment in the world to work in and the lack of levity concerned me. People seemed guarded and paranoid, and never spoke of the Swaggarts without lowering their voice and quickly looking around to see who might be listening. People seemed particularly fearful of Frances. I remember it was at times like this that I would defend her. “Oh really”, I would gush, “she is really the nicest person and has been so kind to me”. They would stare back at me unblinking, with cold, dead eyes. I could see I was not convincing them. I could also see that it was not up for discussion.

I still remember someone entering my office and commencing to talk to me in a barely audible voice. I laughed and said, “What, do you think it’s bugged”? They looked at me dead serious and said, “Well, it wouldn’t be the first time”. I wondered then, just who, or what, I had become involved in.

The three years I spent there were three of the hardest years of my life. My sentence came to an abrupt end when I was fired unceremoniously along with four other people. The only thing that tied all four of us together was an unsolicited email that had been sent to my work address which outlined some highly offensive material that was being printed in the ministry’s print shop. Being masters of the sweep, it was important for them to silence the voice of anyone that knew, lest they infect others with the truth. At Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, it seems that being righteous is not nearly as important as looking righteous.

In the days that followed, the print-shop worker who had been so outraged over what he had been asked to print decided to talk to Jimmy. He was still under the impression that Jimmy did not know. He believed, as I had for so long, that somehow there was a rogue element loose in the ministry perpetrating these things without Swaggart’s knowledge. I felt compassion for him as I knew that when the acid of truth ate through his wall of denial, it would be particularly painful. It was.

If I could count the number of people who said to me in my three years there that there was something not right. There was too much secrecy, too much control of information. By controlling the information an individual has, they limit the person’s ability to think for themselves. Individuality is not prized at JSM and is targeted for special treatment. This special treatment involves isolation, shunning, and coercive persuasion. It is a process designed to break a person’s individuality and replace it with their cloned group-think. If a person still does not bend, then an artfully crafted piece of gossip is skillfully inserted into the grapevine to destroy the person’s character. They have it down to an art form. I watched it happen to others, and I experienced the pain, frustration, and humiliation of it, when it happened to me.

Most people cave in and conform. Faced with forces they feel unable to escape from, they adapt. They learn to anticipate problems and manipulate events to avoid self-incrimination. It is hard to even realize it is happening to you when you don’t know who your enemy is. Your enemy seems like they are your very best friend and advocate and only have your very best interests at heart.

At Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, people come to expect humiliation, isolation, ostracism and punishment, because they can never live up to the ideal. Since they set themselves up to be the ultimate judge of good and evil, their employees live in a state of constant fear of failure, fear of being fired, and constant guilt and shame over perceived wrongs they may have committed against the organization. It does not help that the rules seem to constantly change or that there are two sets of rules.

On more than one occasion when I was being given a particularly coercive talk about my absence from church, Frances remarked that she knew me better than I knew myself. Odd, since scripture clearly states that no one but God can know the heart of man. She was setting herself up to be Holy Spirit to me, to lead me and guide me in the ways she deemed righteous. It did not seem to matter to her that attending church there was never made a condition of my employment, nor did it matter that there were many people employed there who did not go to church at all, including members of her own extended family. When I told Frances that there were many “unsaved” people who worked there she looked at me coldly and said, “Well that is different, they are unsaved and they don’t go to church anywhere.” Clearly in her eyes it was better to be unsaved than to be saved and not go to their church.

After my own experience, I began to search through online material and books to see what others had experienced. I knew that the mistreatment of those in their employ had to be a pattern. In some ways, what I found was therapeutic. Reading the experiences of others and knowing that I was not alone, that many others had experienced similar mistreatment, was somehow affirming. For obvious reasons, one of the first sources I looked at was award-winning investigative journalist John Camp. Although certainly not the focus of his investigations, he describes some instances that to those of us who have been at the receiving end, seem all too familiar.

In his book, Odyssey of a Derelict Gunslinger, John B. Camp describes how he initially became interested in digging deeper into Jimmy Swaggart Ministries. He describes what he refers to as a “sad-faced truck driver” showing up at his office who complained that he and his wife had been fired unjustly.

“The man drove one of the eighteen-wheeler rigs that transported television production equipment, gospel recordings and a variety of religious merchandise to Swaggart’s twice-monthly crusades.

The couple had relocated from the Midwest for the specific purpose of becoming helpmates of Jimmy and Jesus. She worked in the warehouse that processed the ministry’s huge mail-order business. However, she was labeled a trouble-maker after complaining of sexual harassment by a supervisor, and the couple was fired.”

Not long after, Camp had a mid-level manger arrive at his office who complained about “Jimmy’s arbitrary and unchristian-like treatment.” He gave Camp a stack of internal memoranda that suggested that “the ministry’s top three executives- Jimmy, his wife Frances and their son, Donnie, were overbearing micro-managers consumed with minutiae.”

Camp goes on to explain that initially he was not interested in doing a piece on what amounted in his mind to, “internal whining”, but also did not want to overlook a story that had essentially been handed to him.

“I started to contact other disaffected former employees. The complaints were much the same- people disillusioned by the perceived arrogance of Brother Jimmy and his family.”

Camp was still not satisfied that he had a story worth pursuing until he met George Jernigan, Swaggart’s former Director of Finance. Not surprisingly, Jernigan had been fired for urging Swaggart to be frank in his fund-raising appeals. The controversy primarily involved Swaggarts misappropriation of funds gathered through emotional appeals in which pictures of emaciated African children were shown to garner the empathy (and cold hard cash) of his Christian viewers. According to Jernigan, contributions were not going to the Children’s Fund but were being siphoned into the general account. Only pennies on the dollar were actually being spent in the feeding of starving children.

In, Odyssey of a Derelict Gunslinger, Camp describes his encounter with Jernigan.

“George Jernigan was not the kind of guy to maliciously spread gossip. Tall and slender with a rounded beard sans mustache, his posture and deliberate manner gave him the appearance of a stern Amish farmer. He remained almost reverently subdued in criticizing his former employer, once interrupting my questioning to pray for guidance before answering. …. After prayerful meditation, Jernigan told me of the ministry’s extravagant spending, and explained how contributions of jewelry and other goods were converted for personal use by the Swaggart family. His biggest criticism was directed at a fund-raising gimmick called the ‘Children’s fund.’”

When Jernigan complained to Swaggart about the misrepresentations, he was unceremoniously fired. In speaking at a tape-recorded staff meeting not long after the firing of Jernigan, Swaggart had this to say.

“Some of the Brothers here have questioned my judgment. Let me set the record straight. I have forgotten more about administration and organization and business than most of you will ever learn. I know what I’m doing. I probably know more about what I am doing than any man you’ve ever laid eyes on in your life. Don’t ever think I don’t know what I am doing. Somebody talks about the chain of command and you’re looking at the whole chain, every link in it.”

Camp also describes an encounter with the ministry’s former Director of Spiritual Counseling, Noble Scroggins. Scroggins recounted an incident involving an elderly woman who wrote that she and her sisters had fallen on hard times and were barely existing on their meager social security checks.

“The sisters were contributors to fundraising appeals to feed starving children. But facing hard times, they were unable to fulfill pledges. The letter asked if it would be sinful to commit suicide so that proceeds of their life insurance policies could go to the Children’s Fund.”

Scroggins ran to Swaggart’s office expecting him to immediately call the woman and dissuade her from any suicidal ideation. Instead, Swaggart casually set the letter aside. Scroggins resigned.

In an article that appeared in the December 1986 edition of Spin magazine, a Swaggart executive described scores of ministry employees being subjected to lie detector tests when it was suspected that someone was leaking information to John Camp. If the ministry had nothing to hide, why take such extreme and invasive measures against employees. If a person has nothing to hide then generally, they hide nothing. What were they afraid was going to be exposed? The truth?

According to a ministry executive who took the test, passed, but later resigned, overweight ministry employees were subjected to mandatory weight loss programs in order to keep their jobs.

“Frances got on this kick,” he said, “that everybody was too fat, so she made everybody go on this mandatory weight-loss program. The incentive was, you got to keep your job- so many people took it very seriously and got very upset.”

He got the message that Frances Swaggart thought it was un-Christian to look fat. He adds, “Frances had been rubbing elbows with the jet set for such a long time that she felt that everybody needed to shape up.” Spin Magazine, December 1986 edition.

Interestingly enough, in the book, Swaggart: The Unauthorized Biography of an American Evangelist by Ann Rowe Seaman, the incident is also mentioned.

“In early 1985 she [Frances] instituted a weight policy explaining that it has something to do with insurance rates. Everybody had to go down the basement and stand in line to be weighed once a month. There were departmental competitions and individual “losers” were recognized in chapel; big losers got to travel with Jimmy and Frances to the next crusade.

The explanation about insurance rates appeared to be a fiction when the Bible college students were also pressured to lose weight. And of course there was favoritism said Larry Thomas- “If a four-dollar-an-hour employee got fat, there was pressure to lose weight. If a family member or a very, very valuable employee got fat there was no pressure.”

I believe when Frances hires someone she truly believes she owns them, all of them; from the thoughts in their head to the flesh on their bones.

In Seaman’s book she describes an incident in which a long time producer is fired by Frances after being seen shaking the hand of a former JSM pastor who had started a rival church. When a television engineer dared to question the unfair termination, he too was fired. A group of employees then went to Frances to protest the terminations.

“Jimmy…. heard the ruckus and came through the [connecting] door,” said an ex-television cameraman for the ministry. He pointed to one of the employees and asked if the ministry had ever done anything to hurt her. Yes she said.

“You’re fired!” said Jimmy. Then he turned to another and asked him the same question. The answer was yes. “You’re fired!” said Jimmy. Frances honor had to be protected. “She was still his wife,” said the ex-cameraman. “Love or hate he had to take up for her.” Swaggart: The Unauthorized Biography of an American Evangelist, Ann Rowe Seaman

An interesting book to peruse should you be fortunate enough to find a copy, is Jimmy Swaggart, Dead Man Rising, by the late Barbara Nauer. The book is out of print and copies on Ebay or Amazon are cost prohibitive to say the least. I tracked down a copy at the Louisiana State Library and although not able to withdraw the book, I was able to photocopy it. Because I realize that most readers will not be sufficiently interested enough to stand in a downtown library and stuff quarters into a copy machine, I have extracted a few items of interest.

Barbara Nauer worked as Jimmy’s editor for several years. Her book is well written, easy to read, and clearly illustrates the ministry’s cavalier attitude towards its underlings. In the incident that follows, she describes the dissolution of a successful ministry outreach and the subsequent ill-treatment of its faithful employees.

“The bus ministry had been for several years the impressive spiritual work of several of Swaggart’s “young lions”. These were bright young ministers, graduates of Jimmy Swaggart’s Bible College, who with their wives and girlfriends, young women just as committed as they were, had designed and put into operation the bus ministry’s impressive program of games, skits, meals, musicals, outings and preachings for the disadvantaged kids.

Of late the young ministers had been running a parallel mid-week ministry to the parents of their regular weekend kids. They had the Academy schoolteachers volunteering to teach reading and writing to those ghetto parents who wished to learn these skills……Anyone familiar with this youth-driven charitable outreach was faintly in awe of it.

….As one pair of middle-aged chaperones for the buses put it, the mere fact that, week after week, the ghetto children sat still for hours, listening to preachings and watching Christian morality plays, “could make you believe in God”.

Nauer then goes on to say that it was suddenly and inexplicable over. In a single weekend the bus ministry was wiped out, the fleet of buses sold, and the Tucker Building, which had housed the bus ministry, rented out.

She further explains how the morale among employees plummeted as they realized that without warning, these young ministers were turned out into an impossibly tight job market. Nauer was further distressed to find out that the ministry had no intentions of giving the suddenly unemployed young ministers letters of reference. Thinking this must surely be an oversight, she went to Frances and offered to draft a form letter on her lunch hour which could be issued in Frances name. This way, at least the young men would be armed with a job reference in their formidable search for employment. Baton Rouge was known to have one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation at that time, and the job market was virtually impenetrable.

“Even as I spoke, I could tell that Jimmy’s wife was at a loss to imagine why such an exercise as I was describing might be called for. At length, Mrs. Swaggart flicked a hand as if brushing a fly away from her eyes. “Oh Barbara, that’s not important. Go back to what you were doing.”

Frances was clearly unconcerned. Not surprising for any of us that have had more than a fleeting encounter with her.

Quite honestly, I can say from my own personal experience that I have seen more people fired in my three years at JSM than I have in all my working years, and in all my jobs combined. The turnover rate is astronomical. It is not required by law in Louisiana to give a reason for dismissal and at JSM, reasons are seldom given. One would think they would aspire to ascribe to a higher law, but in their minds they are the law. Employee’s questions are simply met with, “you know why you are being fired” or “I don’t have to tell you.”

In the corporate world people are nearly always terminated for justifiable and measurable reasons. It would be unfathomable for a major corporation to refuse an employee a reason for dismissal. They do this for the development of the person they are firing! Several warnings, both oral and written are given well in advance of the termination and employees are never left to guess what the terminable offence might have been. How much more would we expect fairness from a “Christian” organization?

The day I was terminated I sat while Frances read the “confidentiality” agreement to a fellow employee. When I asked why I was being fired she stated “I don’t have to tell you” in a sing-song voice then smiled like the Cheshire cat, a smug little smile. It was literally the response a spoiled five-year old child would have given. She did not give a reason because there wasn’t one; at least not one that would have been justifiable in anyone’s eyes but hers. At JSM, terminable offences were rarely performance based but rather based on paranoia and a maniacal need for control and unbridled loyalty. That loyalty includes covering up the things they do. Sorry, but my loyalty ends there. My soul is not for sale.

Since the ministry is a non-profit organization they are not required to participate in the unemployment insurance program. Nor, might I add, do they pay into any benefits for their employees. Terminated employees are left completely without a means to provide for themselves or their families. A significant portion of ministry employees, live on ministry grounds in the Bluebonnet Towers. The Towers are owned by the ministry, but rooms and apartment units are also rented to the general public. Many employees are terminated only to come home and find that they have also been evicted. There are no leases at Bluebonnet Towers and rentals are month to month. Precisely, I presume, in order to exercise this kind of control. Evicted tenants are given thirty days to vacate legally, but stories abound of instances where tenants have been given a day or less.

It is criminal in my mind that an organization that purports to care so much about saving the lost, cares so little about the found. It is unimaginable how they could fire someone and evict them in the same day. How would they even hope to secure alternate living arrangements? Who would rent an apartment to an unemployed person? Many who have come from out of State to work, are left abandoned, and in desperate straits. There most certainly will not be any help for these unfortunate souls from Family Worship Center. The shunning and dis- fellowshipping of former employees is openly encouraged and the ministry is most certainly not known for its charity.

I have always had a heart for the homeless. Within months of arriving in Baton Rouge, I remember reading that the city’s homeless shelter was in desperate need of sheets. I went to Frances and asked if we could put this need in the bulletin. Surely there were people in the congregation that would donate sheets to the shelter. I assured her that I would collect the sheets and take them to the shelter on behalf of the church. She looked at me with a disgusted and almost incredulous look. “Uhh”, she spat out hatefully, “those people just need to get jobs”.

No, there is certainly no charity at Jimmy Swaggart Ministries.

Recently, I spoke to a young man, Danny Wright, who had worked in donor services, attended the Bible College, and played drums for the Crossfire Worship Band. His mother had recently passed in a tragic accident and he was struggling both spiritually and emotionally. He went to a friend’s house where he consumed alcohol. Three months later he was suddenly called to account for it. He was expelled from the college, ousted from the band, and fired from his job. Had he been unfortunate enough to live at Bluebonnet Towers, he would have been evicted too. The ironic thing is that a very high proportion of the students go to the bars, drink and party. A fact that is well-known by most who work there. When the young man brought this up to his accusers, Gabriel Swaggart himself admitted that yes, there was a great deal of that occurring, but they were there to discuss him. Danny further stated to Gabriel that if the ministry were to pursue everyone in this manner, they would literally have to fire everyone under the age of thirty, save two.

When he recounted his story to me he paused, lowered his head and said, “Maybe if I had been caught with a prostitute they would have had grace for me. Maybe then I could have been forgiven”. He then looked up and added. “You would think that they, of all people, would know a little something about grace and forgiveness”. I will never forget that conversation.

Another eye-opening and gut wrenching first hand account of employee abuse comes from former band member Kerry Rhys. Kerry and his wife Allison-Collins Rhys were both employed by the music department at Jimmy Swaggart Ministries. While I do not know them personally, I am familiar with their story. In a personal blog entry entitled, “For those who have written and asked why”, Kerry describes how both he and his wife were terminated from the ministry.

“One day a surprise meeting for the entire music department was called, mandatory attendance for all employees. As we (about 25 employees) sat waiting to see what it was about, Frances Swaggart walked in and proceeded to interrogate us about things that someone told her were being said. Allison was not mentioned during this time. At the end, Robin stood up and said pretty unexpectedly “Allison you’ve made some very bad decisions”. A little confused as Allison and I had no clue to what was going on, Robin said “a married couple here has been coming to me on a regular basis telling me you are saying things about the ministry. It’s happening often and I think where there is smoke there is fire”. We wouldn’t find out what he was talking about until two years later.

A week after the group meeting with Frances and Robin’s cryptic statement, Allison got a phone call and was read a memo over the phone by Nikki Tracy that she had been terminated from JSM. I was fired by association with no explanation. Allison was five months pregnant at this time, we had no idea what we would do for money.”

He goes on to explain how his wife was later called in to Frances office and told that it was all a misunderstanding. She was instead placed on suspension without pay which lasted seven months. Debts were mounting as they continued to assure her week after week that it would soon be worked out and she would be hired back.

“At this time Swaggart insisted she meet with Robin, that she would only be hired back if Robin approved. She met with Robin, he told her he did not want her back but she managed to grovel, cry, and beg enough to get her job back. Upon returning to work she was told that the salary which she was initially offered would no longer be paid. At this point she was paid less than half of what many others were paid. A huge cut in salary. I was hired back full-time a few months later, also for half of my former salary. Our take home pay was now below the poverty level for just one individual, much less two adults supporting three children.”

Their debts continued to mount until they found themselves faced with the final notice for legal foreclosure on their home. They were given ten days before their home would be sold at a sheriff’s auction and needed to come up with two months mortgage plus legal costs. Desperate for money, Allison agreed to sing with her husband, Bob Henderson, and Jeremy Downey at a local club. When Frances found out, Kerry and Allyson were fired. While I understand that they had agreed to not sing secular music while working for the ministry, it was common knowledge that others had been doing the very same for a very long time while the Swaggart’s looked the other way.

Before I woke up the next morning Allison had received a call that she was terminated from the ministry. Bob and Jeremy were also said to have been fired by Robin. When I woke up Jeremy was already over at our house. While sitting on our couch Robin called Jeremy and I listened on the speaker phone when Robin told Jeremy that he and Bob would not be fired….only Allison.

…….We’ve had people tell us they have approached Frances to ask what happened to Allison and her answer was “Allison decided she wanted to go do her own thing”. The truth is she was fired after being set up by people in the church, suspended for seven months without pay, then hired back for a fraction of her original salary. Then fired after she sang two songs with other church musicians that were kept on at the ministry.

Recently I had the privilege of taking at great length with Tareva Henderson about her experiences at the ministry. Someone had sent me a link to a letter she had written to a website that had been openly critical of her. She was warm and unpretentious. Her experiences there were all too familiar; the isolation and shunning, the brainwashing, it was like hearing my own experiences through someone else’s lips.

I went there years ago after the downfall around 2003 only to help my brother because he told me the music department was in a mess and falling apart. I had plans to move to Florida so I offered to sub part-time and do some tunes to help because I never get to see my brother. They offered me a huge salary to take a full-time leadership position over the stage. I declined because my Florida plans were in place and the longer I hung around to sub I just saw too much that broke my heart. …..

The place was empty and sad and a spirit of oppression ran across the building because no one trusted each another or anyone else. Workers were miserable and were constantly asking me “how do you get out of here”?? It blew me away at first because they made it sound like a prison. As time went by I saw it was…………i.e. people’s jobs and families were threatened if they didn’t go along with all the games…..

Once I tried to help a girl with a newborn that was stranded in BR because she came in from out-of-town to a camp meeting and her car broke down. I took her over to the dorms and they said “send her to the salvation army we run this like a business not a ministry”. I ended up paying for her a room that night. I looked everywhere in the place to find something that felt “Christ Like” but it was nowhere.

The dooms about divorce was always preached then Donnie’s “second” marriage is to a girl that’s been divorced five times, and the married couples working there cheating on one another with other employees; Families turning against one another like enemies of war over money and who is right…

…People often ask me, “Why don’t you work there”? They play me often on their radio and TV shows to raise big money. At the time I was there, I didn’t even know I was being recorded, then I later talked to other singers who encountered the same experience.

…I don’t believe in selling salvation, then or now or ever. Tareva Henderson

Tareva related to me that when she was first asked to work for the music department she told Jimmy Swaggart that she did not believe as he did, as she was a Unitarian. He looked at her and said, “Well, we are willing to look the other way on that.” Later in the conversation she related an incident that had left her shaken. She had a book on the seat in her car that was perhaps not the type of spiritual material that the ministry would have approved of. Although I did not ask, I would imagine that it was a book that might be more in line with her beliefs. Beliefs I might add, that she made plain to the ministry before she was hired. One of the ministry spies (and there are always multitudes jockeying for this position), happened to see the book in Tareva’s car and went to Frances. Frances in turn called Tareva in, and started questioning her about the types of books she liked to read. Initially she did not know what the inquiry was about and seemed confused as to why Frances would be so interested in her choice of reading material. Slowly it dawned on her that someone must have spied the book on the seat of her car. Frances asked her to bring her the book and Tareva complied by retrieving the book and handing it over. Frances then demanded that Tareva go home and retrieve any and all such books and bring them to her so they could be destroyed.

This kind of maniacal control is legendary and quite mind bending if you happen to be on the receiving end of it. I was, on more than one occasion, asked to remove things from my own website. The first time occurred after someone had written something non-complimentary about the Swaggarts on my forum. I had at that time defended the Swaggarts but left the comment intact. I had never made it a practice to remove posts from my forum whether I agreed with them or not. That was the whole idea of a having a forum! Frances called me to her office and told me to remove it. I complied. It was crystal clear to me early on, that refusal was not an option.

The second time occurred after I posted an article to my website that she did not agree with. Ironically enough, it had been written by a JSM minister under an anonymous name. She not only demanded I remove it, but also demanded I give her the name of the person who wrote it. I refused. I knew full well that she knew who it was. The game seemed pointless to me. She knew who it was, I knew she knew, but still she pressed. I refused on principle alone, but did remove the article. What choice did I have?

It has taken these two months since my departure to get over the feeling of being under constant surveillance. It was fascinating to me to read in Nauer’s book that others had remarked about this very same thing. When I came here, the ministry had one paltry and disjointed website. Their web presence was virtually non-existent. In my three years under their employ, I created and maintained six ministry websites, effectively establishing their online presence and catapulting them into prominence in the search engines. In return, I was fired without cause, with no severance pay, no ability to collect unemployment insurance, and certainly no letter of reference. This has placed me in a precarious situation since I am alone in Baton Rouge, my closest family residing in Canada. Regardless, there has only been one inquiry by anyone associated with the ministry since my departure. Of one thing I am certain, Jimmy Swaggart Ministries is and never was, my provider. I serve a loving God, whose Grace is sufficient, and His provisions astounding. Selah.


    • Lee says

      Wolves in sheepskins. I know the type all too well. They are devils. They are pharisees who are obsessed with appearing outwardly good. I thought this particular brand of evil was just local, as in my own family, but lo, it seems to be intrinsic with everyday Christians, especially in America. If that is the case, we as a nation have fallen in dark place with no hope of escape.

      Overall, my assessment about what is happening with members of my family is spot on. They are full of self righteousness and evil deeds. And all this time I beat myself for being a failure in the eyes of God. If I can be honest and make that confession, there is hope for me. But for them, it appears they are truly lost.

  1. jim nations says

    frances swaggart is a precious woman of god who has the weight of a huge ministry on her shoulders. the amount of work she does for an almost 80 year old woman is amazing. one does not reach her status without being a strong leader and demanding loyalty from her employees. the woman i might add has been put through hell by her husband with all the scandals and she is the one who has kept the ministry together and prospering and provide employment to hundreds of people. god bless frances and jsm. perhaps you should hightail it back to canada and try to find god and then apologize to sister frances.
    jim nations.

    • Mishel says

      Galatians 4:16 (Have I therefore become your enemy by telling you the truth?)

      What exactly do I need to apologize for? Should I apologize for telling the truth? Should I apologize for knowing about the nasty hip hop covers and night club posters they were printing in their MINISTRY printshop? Should I apologize for being outraged at the lack of integrity, lies, coverup,and rampant UNCHECKED sexual sin? Should I apologize for being concerned over the wanton disregard for proper exegesis? What exactly is it that you would like me to apologize for?

      First of all I highly doubt this comment came from Jim Nations. I traced the IP address to West Monroe- I also traced the email address to an address in Winnsboro, LA. Instead of Nations couldn’t your last name be White? While I have been disappointed that Jim has failed to take a stand against what I am quite confident he KNOWS is going on there, I sincerely doubt he would stoop to this level.


      • Linda says

        You can’t serve God and mammon. They overcame by the Blood and the Word of Their Testimony. We can’t trust in flesh. We must test the spirits. Pray for the weak.
        I am so tired sister. Please pray for the Body of Christ. There are so many shut ins that love the Lord and they are robbed by the beguiling familiar spirits.
        Praise the Lord that the Word was preached.
        Many men will stand at judgement and claim all of their good works and the Lord will say “depart from me, I never knew you, you workers of iniquity! It is hard for me to accept a gift from someone who has it to give. Imagine getting gifts and let alone begging for them from someone who is in need.
        Thank You for being a sister of the True and Merciful God our PRECIOUS LORD JESUS!
        A spiritual man judgeth all things, yet he is judged by NO MAN!
        Be gentle as a dove and as wise as a serpent.
        Love In Christ Jesus, Linda

      • says

        I am raising my autistic Grandchild with a life threatening illness and I am unable to go to church.I watch SLB on TV all the time.I believe in God and after reading this I am afraid I am
        being mislead.What should I do ?

        • John says

          I would suggest not to watch all to often, They preach quite a bit of truth and that’s why they are so dangerous, then they mix in damnable doctrines that can’t be found in the bible so they will point you exclusively to Jimmy’s expositors bible and commentaries to I doctrinaire you with their new theology. Of course it’s really not new at all it is a mixture of lies that have been circulating through the church for years.

          • aw says

            I would just like to point out that have an expositors bible and its been a tremendous blessing and encouragement. Its simply a study bible with notes to help one understand the scripture better.

          • John says

            Yes it certainly can spoon feed you Jimmy’s opinions without stimulating and try study of the bible simply taking his comments and gulping them down. A good study bible very well may have some notes but should also have an abundance of scripture references to stimulate searching and verifying for yourself. The expositors bible has very few scripture references, it will on occasion but mostly just Jimmy’s notes. I have read about 70% of it notes included and of course their are some good things but jimmy has such a mixed bag of theology it is inconstant in many areas as with their teaching.

      • Mary says

        Jim Nations did not write that email. He would be fired for saying that Jimmy has put Frances through Hell. While he certainly would defend Frances, he would defend Jimmy also. He is one of the insiders.

      • says

        Mishel…I was there when some of the things you mentioned happened…I have followed Jimmy since the seventies….and some of what you say is incorrect..especially about the bus ministry…I was there when the two men got the word about the bus ministry…and it didn’t quit then…yes, they sold some buses…but…I won’t go into details because these men are in other jobs…but it is not as you said…this is first hand knowledge.

        Jimmy and frances aren’t perfecxt…they are control freaks…but their name is on the ministry..you don’t like it…leave…do I say that is a good way to run it…in a way yes…in a way no…

        but I do not believe in the gross errors in doctrine….I learned more there in the years i was there than other places..the man is well versed..

        Is he perfect…NO…has he made mistakes..yeah…why is it so bad….because he is seen by so many…..but we see this on a smaller scale in smaller churches…

        I could write a page or two about this…suffice to say…when the two pastors walked out of pastor rentz’s office, I was standing there with their wives and heard word for word what happened…so the bus ministry stuff is wrong.

        • Mishel says

          I did not witness the bus ministry incident personally, the source was noted in the above article. If you say that it did not happen that way then I have no reason to disbelieve you. It would simply be your word against the person who wrote the book and I am more concerned with truth than painting the Swaggarts in any particular way. I am willing to admit this fact could be wrong.

          You seem sincere and I do respect your opinion, however there are hundreds of first person testimonies, including mine that contradict your experiences there. Having said that, I have no doubt that you are telling me the truth and that your experiences were positive.

          I do NOT expect the Swaggarts to be perfect, however I DO expect them to live by the standards they espouse. When they preach so vehemently against hip-hop music while profiting through printing lewd covers for local hip hop bands, I have a problem with that. When they profit from printing posters for an area gay club, I also have a problem with that. Likewise I have a problem with them using the ministry printing press which was paid with by people’s donations and using it for a shadow business by another name with funds coming straight back to the ministry. Yeah, call me crazy but I have a problem with that. Also, before you ask, YES they knew about it and I have proof of that fact.

          I do appreciate your testimony though and am glad that your experiences were not like so many others.

      • T.Heim says

        Thank you for sharing your experiences. I thought Jimmy Swaggart went away after the sex scandals, but then I recently ran across a service on SBN. I felt like I was in a time-warp! I was raised in a pentecostal church very similar to FWC. The environment was so unhealthy! I couldn’t believe they are singing the same songs we were singing 50 years ago and preaching against other churches and pastors that they don’t like! The Swaggarts appear delusional! They’ve convinced themselves that they have ALL truth, that they are the only church preaching the TRUE gospel, etc. They only use the KJV, and of course, the Expositor’s Bible written by Jimmy, as if only he has the true revelation of scripture! They act like their ministry is HUGE! It’s clear that there has been too many years of inbred thought without oversight by wiser, more mature and more loving people. I’m praying that they stay small…and don’t damage the gospel message any more than they already may have!

    • Norma says

      Get real.This lady is trying to warn people and preach the REAL truth of deception.I am a Christian and I have concern for JSM but they tell so many different stories that it is so sad for sinners that do not know what to believe.I. have heard so many call them hypocrites and the woods are full of them.I love Johnny Clarey and I pray that he does not change but I see a sadness in his face that wasn’t there at first.Seems as if something is pulling him down .SOMEBODY WILL ANSWER FOR JSM ‘S UNGODLY ACTS..”My opinion “

      • David Sanchez says

        I watch Sonlife on occasions, but it is a little disturbing watching the arrogance of Donnie Swaggart on the Frances & Friends Show. When callers call in to ask a question, Frances and Donnie just seem a little rude at times. I do not see humility at all with these two. Something just doesn’t ring right with this ministry. Another turn off is their study Bible they consistently advertise. The Expositor’s Bible. I purchased it and returned it right back. It is very distracting trying to read the Word and Jimmy’s comments all over in red lettering. It’s like he was literally adding to the Word. Anyone has this Bible?

        • theim says

          Best thing you could have done…..returning that Bible! I don’t understand why anyone would believe that a guy as uneducated as Swaggart would have complete understanding of ALL scripture! There are dozens of excellent translations, paraphrases and commentaries on the market done by many scholarly writers, linguists and theologians! Swaggarts teaching and writing is full of false doctrine, contradictions and misrepresentations. He is highly opinionated and arrogant! I don’t know of ANY other human being who thinks they have complete knowledge of God and His Ways, and that everyone else is wrong! It’s despicable!

    • phipil stevens says

      Thank God it will not be long before they both face God on their Judgement Days! SERIOUSLY doubt we will see ANY of the fraudulent Swaggart family in Heaven; Praise God!

  2. Fidelidad says

    There is no way jim nations of jsm/fwc made those remarks in the earlier comment. Anyone who knows Frances Swaggart even a little bit know that she does not want any mention of her age (yes, almost 80 is correct, she is 75 1/2 to be exact, with DOB 8/9/1937), and absolutely no reminders of the sex scandals that brought JSM down from the absolute zenith of financial income, respectability, and influence, to the state it is now – which is actually quite successful, but not in comparison to its former state. So Jim Nations would never have brought up those two taboo subjects.

    If I were to make a guess, the person who did the posting is trying to bring Jim Nations down. There is a ton of internal jealousy and backstabbing at the JSM/FWC.

    • Mishel says

      Well that is true- there is a horrendous amount of infighting there- they would gnaw each other’s heads off with their bare teeth if they thought it would bring them an extra dollar and a bit of recognition.

  3. Arthur says

    Fantastic blog here! Captivated me for several hours these past few weeks! Thank you for your honesty and frankness here, very refreshing in this day where too many lack discernment in the church, and/or lack the courage to confront it.
    I do remember vividly the events of Jimmy Swaggart’s fall 25 years ago, I was in Springfield, MO at the time attending school. Had some good friends who were unfortunately attending JSBC at the time, they quickly transferred out. Very sad the choices Jimmy made, there could have been a better outcome had he followed through with the A/G’s 2 year restoration plan. Unfortunately when someone gets a taste of power, it’s very hard to relinquish it. Reading these recent stories shows how power has corrupted this ministry even further. However, nothing new. Lots of abusive churches out there with their miniature versions of power-play in action stroking the ego of insecure pastors.
    Blessings from Canada, fellow Canadian! :o)

  4. Anna says

    This is a GREAT website! I’ve been looking for one like this for years. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! People need to read these things and have their eyes opened to these wolves. It’s bookmarked as one of my favorites!

  5. aw says

    I would just like to ask the question? Is this profitable for christians to spend their time in such things as this website discusses. I would have to say not at all but rather its unprofitable. It would be all together different if this site was warning about false teaching and pointing out biblical error but its not. its about one persons experience and from their point of few.

    • Mishel says

      You obviously have not read the articles on this website if you believe that the site is not about pointing out Biblical error. Also, the article above is not written from one persons point of view. These things are WELL documented for those who dare to take an objective look.

      • AW says

        My question is simply, what is the purpose of this site, what is the overall objective? Are you saved Mishel? Do you profess Christ as your Lord and savior and if so, do you think that this site is pleasing to the Lord? The facts of the matter is that there is no perfect human being on planet earth and there will always be fault to find somewhere? If Jesus Christ has forgiven someone of their sins, then those sins are washed away by his blood, never to brought up again.

        • John says

          AW, it’s nice to play the compassionate Christian that does not judge and gives everyone the benefit of the doubt because no one is perfect, but the bible clearly states it is our Christian prerogative to test the spirits and judge them by their fruit. So excusing corruption from ministers and ministries is not pleasing to The Lord either. He has given the qualifications of a Bishop in His word. See Paul’s letter to Timothy, and I am all for a fallen minister to receive restoration and renter the ministry but when one never receives any type of restoration but only shows rebellion and now is teaching at best serious error and more likely heresy, the those are the individuals that Paul instructed us to mark because they are devisive and self serving, if you will truly test the spirit of the swaggart ministry you will see that they are very devisive and self serving.

          • AW says

            Hello John, how is Jimmy Swaggart preaching error? What do you mean? If you have an example, I would like to know so that we may discuss. I have not heard any error come out of Jimmy Swaggart Ministries and I am part of their media church and have greatly benefited from his ministry. It has helped me to grow in the Lord tremendously, namely in being set free from bondages that plagued me and robbed me of my christian experience. It was all through the preaching and teaching of the Cross of Christ and what Jesus accomplished their as spelled out in Romans Chapters 6, 7, & 8.

          • John says

            Hello AW,
            I would be more than Glad to discuss with you the error of the JSM cross teaching. First and foremost the biblical message and application of the cross is central to the Christian faith. However JSM diverges subtlety but in fact when exposed not all too subtle. The fact that you received blessing from Gods word does not validate their ministry, a hungry heart God will not turn away and his word won’t return void. JSM preaches a lot of truth and when an individual responds in faith to that truth then The Lord will work in that heart, however the entire body of teaching is not true.

            First I will use Jimmy’s own words, he maintains that all the reasons for his personal struggle was due to him not having understanding of the cross, or he will actually say that he did not have the proper knowledge. Nowhere in the Christian faith are we to seek proper knowledge to abstain victory. If this were the case then every individual that got saved should be placed in a program to indoctrinate them with proper knowledge and then they will never fail The Lord. This of course is absurd, number 1 it negates repentance. If you are a Christian living in gross sin then you don’t need knowledge you need to repent and turn to Christ and come out and not touch the unclean thi gs that you have mingled with. Paul would say how can you be joined to a harlot and Christ?

            Jimmy also says that he did not know “how to control the sinful nature” he says once he got the proper knowledge of the cross he then knew how the sinful nature was to be controlled. This is error to begin with, the cross is not an instrument of control, but in fact an instrument of death. To claim the cross controls sinful impulse as long as your faith ever remains in that object is not a program of sanctification but in fact one of suppression that will only lead to frustration and failure. The sin nature clearly is to be crucified and put to death. Romans 6:6. The problem with jimmy and his view of the cross is that he seems to feel the sinful nature, sin principle, impulse of sinful flesh or Any other terms that may be used is simply placed under “control” and the moment one “takes their faith out of the cross” then all the passions of the flesh run wild. He even uses Galations chapter 5 to support his errant theology. However if you will look at that text and only the text not his words that while sometimes insightful more times than not they simply muddle the scripture, then you will see that when Paul speaks of the works of the flesh, he is clearly speaking of the unredeemed nature. He says so by concluding they that do such SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. It can’t be anymore plain than that. Jimmy has rewritten scripture to make provision that you in fact can formication, and adulterated and all of the others listed because its only that you do not have a proper knowledge of the cross and when you get it like he got it then they will all pass away.

            This ignores the commands of Romans 6. Paul gives the believer instruction to see to it that they take advantage of the redemptive provision of the cross and make the death of the old man a reality in their life.
            These instruction in no way interfere with the doctrine of Grace for they are claims of faith that can only be made by believing that Christ death burial and resurrection are sufficient not only to forgive sin but also purge sin.
            Paul says in Romans 6:11 that we are to reckon ourselves dead, by faith know that our connection with sin is no more and we can walk in new resurrection power through the cross, he also commands the believer Let not sin reign. This implies that we are responsible to resist the power of sin to regain entrance and control in our life. How do we do this? Paul makes it clear in the 13th verse and say neither yeild yourself to unrighteousness but yeild your members unto God. Climatically in verse 14 the apostle gives the result of the believer taking hold of the claims by faith and that is that sin shall not have dominion over you for you have no further connection to it or to the law but you are supplied with the sufficient grace to live a Godly life in Christ Jesus.
            Jimmy and his teaching deny that such responsibility is incumbent upon the believer and in fact state that you simply put faith in the cross and all else is automatic. This is a damning mistake that will leave a believer wondering why they are still committing sin. It is because they have not yielding their vessell unto God, they are waiting for a magical revelation to release that from all temptation. This is a pie in the sky that will never happen, we are promised total victory but in Romans 8 Paul will state we must purposely wage war against the flesh resist its demands because we owe it nothing and depend and trust the power of the spirit to put to death the sinful deeds that our mortal body desires to carry out. This is a very brief summary but should you want to further discuss I will be glad to. I have nothing against JSM and at one time was glad to see that they were doing a good work, but upon further investigation and after many checks in my spirit about jimmy new revelation I have sadly seen that not much has changed thru the years at Jimmy Swaggart ministries.

          • Rosie says

            Well spoken truth John from the true Word of God. This type of corruption and leadership style of control & cover-up is rampant in large churches & ministries across America. And so many needy Christians who are influenced by these charismatic charlatans will often do anything to “serve” under these big names & get into their “good graces”. Once they have been taken captive, it is too late & there is too much to lose, so they have to remain loyal unless the they truly know the One whom they should be serving in the first place. Woe be it unto modern day Christianity where too much power, authority & trust is placed in the hands of “anointed men of God” because of their persuasive powers to attract all manner of men w/enticing words of “wisdom” & promises of all kind.

          • James says

            Test the spirits and judge them by their fruits. Wow.Thanks John. I’ll do that. Oh ‘ang about. I’ve been doin’ thart! But you don’t allow others to do that when they disagree with! What a bible lover you are!

        • T.Heim says

          Best thing you could have done…..returning that Bible! I don’t understand why anyone would believe that a guy as uneducated as Swaggart would have complete understanding of ALL scripture! There are dozens of excellent translations, paraphrases and commentaries on the market done by many scholarly writers, linguists and theologians! Swaggarts teaching and writing is full of false doctrine, contradictions and misrepresentations. He is highly opinionated and arrogant! I don’t know of ANY other human being who thinks they have complete knowledge of God and His Ways, and that everyone else is wrong! It’s despicable!

        • says

          AW – the New Testament is full of warnings of false teachers bringing false doctrines and warnings of people who pretend to be Christians who find their way into the church with ulterior motives. Here in the UK we have 15 Christian TV channels, flick through the channels and you will find that 80% of the materials are not based on sound Biblical doctrine but on something else. The Bible is not that hard to understand but here on TV you hear ideas and teachings which are not substantiated in any way. In the end people are led away from a healthy relationship with Christ towards something else like sensationalism, seeking wealth and prosperity, emotional highs, power trips, etc.

          I have been a Christian for 30 years and seen a lot in the Christian media world. I hope not to be too easily led by new ideas these guys come up with, still new believers may be easily drawn in by these groups and led on a path which is deceptive. It is important for people like Mishel who have been through the mill by these so called ministries to stand up and to testify to what they have experienced. We are not talking about the odd failure of a minister or of individuals within a ministry but of institutionalised spiritual abuse by an organisation who claims to represent the Word of God but in reality has something else on their agenda.
          Unfortunately a lot of people get sucked into this abuse and find it hard to get out with the result of unnecessary sufferings and throwing them back in their walk with God.
          The Bible admonishes us to test. Ultimately we do have the Word of God to assess what people or ministries present to us as coming from God. The easiest test is to look at the fruits of ministries and individuals as Jesus tells us in Matthew. Looking at the fruits of this ministry – they speak for themselves:
          Now just to clarify the fruits are not – crusade successes consisting of lists of people who have raised their arm on account of an altar call, or church attendance, or financial success or the size of a ministry. I dare to say that God doesn’t care about these things. Sinners repenting He cares as opposed to arms being raised in a meeting as a response to some talks:
          Here are the fruits as stated in Galatians:
          But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

          Take the measure and apply it to JSM – how much love is there?
          How much peace and joy?
          Listening to the testimonies coming from that ministry faithfulness, longsuffering, forigiveness and gentleness is not their trademark.
          And Self control????

          The works of the flesh are described in the same chapter:
          adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries,

          Looking at JSM and the testimonies which emanate from there it is safe to say that they do have issues:
          with contentions, jealousies, selfish ambitions, dissessions, heresies, envy and of course well documented transgressions with their leader who does have issues in the sexual realm.

          I still remember driving my car listening to the radio when JS second incident with a call girl was reported, with the appropriate ridicule of evangelical Christianity in the secular media.

          In the end how can anybody take these guys serious. I would suggest that it is important as the church to distance ourselves from these people and also not to share in their guilt of mis-representing the Gospel, by supporting them financially. Instead I would encourage people to give your resources to the “poor” in your community and to the local ministry who is keen to reach out to your community and to the people around you. Often there are cash strapped ministries in your community who are keen to do what they feel God wants them to do but are somewhat slowed down by the lack of resources. In the end pray about your giving and let yourself by guided by God rather than giving in to clever arguments on the TV screen manipulating you to give to them and only to them.

          As for Mishel it is important to expose failing ministries we have been warned about in almost every book in the NT. In the last times the Bible warns us of great deceptions, that even the elect might be lead astray.
          Just look around!
          Deception is happening full blow all around us in so called Christian circles. As Christians wanting to serve God we need to make sure that we are not getting sucked into this maze of deception but stay faithful Jesus as he is revealed in the Bible.

          Final word:
          AW it is important what Mishel is doing and I wish more of us would stand up against the spirtitual abuse taking place on our TV screens bringing the precious Gospel into disrepute and switching off many people from even considering the truth.

          Mishel thanks for your exposee and for taking the courage to write this down. Please be encouraged to stand up for the truth.

          As far as SBN is concerned just pray that the people who have gone astray within the organisation will return to God wholeheartedly driven by love for the truth and dedication to Christ rather than serving a mammoth institution/ministry giving them temporal rewards.


        • John Galyon says

          I think my head will explode if one more time… I hear this lame excuse for sin:

          “Nobody’s perfect!’.

  6. John says

    Also I would like to add that I am not advocating sinless perfection, so please don’t accuse me of such, the believer can still most certainly sin but its not a matter of taking faith out of the cross or as I have heard from JSM, ” all sin is a rejection of the cross” this too is absurd, no true Christian would reject the sacrifice of Christ and if ones does then Hebrews tells us that they have passed back to spiritual death by crucifying the son of God afresh and counting the blood of the covenant an unclean thing and doing despite the spirit of grace. This is a far cry from a believer failing The Lord in some way. This happens to every Christian from time to time and is a result of being drawn away by the lust of the flesh and a failure to yeild yourself that the adequate grace may be given. When a christin fails he or she repents and turns to Christ for greater victory. Titus 2:11-14 tells us that the Grace of God will in fact teach us to deny ungodly lust and empower us to live righteous and Godly IN THIS PRESENT WORLD. JSM basically teaches Holiness as a positional truth and not an experimental reality in the life of the believer. This theology can only lead to once saved always saved because it means that the believer need not strive for holy living because we are in Christ and as long as we have faith he simply overlooks our sin because after all we are justified. It is true Christ will always forgive the repentant heart but to claim that you can actually be committing acts of sin and still remain blameless is a total misunderstanding of justification and sanctification..

  7. AW says

    John, I appreciate your response, however I strongly disagree with what you are saying that JSM teaches. I have followed the ministry now for longer than 12 years and have never once heard them teach once saved always saved. They actually teach that the believer can loose their salvation by no longer believing and I agree completely with that. As for the message of the cross teaching, they are teaching just what the apostle paul teaches in scripture, that Christs death on the cross addressed the sin nature that we all have and that in order to live a life of victory, one must maintain there faith in the finished work of christ and nothing else. Normally, if one examines their life, they will find that there faith is really in their selves, their church attendace, what they do or dont do, religious in other words. Additionally, they teach that it may take some time for a person to grasp hold of this because of all of the erroneous teaching that many chistians have digested for so long, I was an example of this. Its very simple, christ and christ alone defeated sin at calvary and the only thing that you or I can do is to put all of our trust in his finished work. I have done this by the grace God and have experienced deliverance from the bondages of darkness and real freedom in my christian walk.
    Also, I would like to add that the presense of the HOLY SPIRIT can be felt during the church services and as well, campmeeting started last night and I had the grandest time, praising and worshiping the Lord as I could sense the HOLY SPIRIT moving. Does the HOLY SPIRIT annoint error and hypocrisy, no, he does’nt.

    • John says

      I understand that you are not going to examine any of the plain facts that I put in my response that are what Paul has laid forth and in fact what JSM ignores. There is a great delusion with many that follow the swaggart ministry and I will say that whatever supposed anointing you sense may or may not be real I can not say as I am not there, but do you think the Holy Spirit is going to turn away hundreds maybe thousands of sincere hearts because the preacher is in error. Because you felt The Lord in praise and worship means nothing, it means you praised The Lord and The Lord will inhabit the praises of his people. It does not say The Lord will inhabit the praise if the preacher conducting the service is going a biblical direction. Jesus makes it clear that many who did great works in his name will in fact be cast to darkness. Matt 7:22. I personally know an I divi dual that was truly healed of cancer at a Benny Hinn crusade. Does this validate the many erroneous doctrines that Benny Hinn teachers. Absolutely not. I would like to point out that you did not scriptural lay address anything that was presented which was very surface level as far as the JSM error goes. You simply gave me several of their Mantras that people have divided faith placing it in church attendance bible reading ect, ect, however show me in scripture where it teaches divided faith. Yes it’s true many Christians are not defendant upon The Lord like they should, they do not yeild like they should but the reality is all of us are still learning to depend and yeild because none of us have perfectly submitted every area of flesh. So if a believer wants victory I will do as Paul instructed and know that redemptive lay through the death burial and resurrection of Christ victory is available and by faith I will yeild myself to Christ.

      Just because an individual has not reached a place of yielding does not mean their faith is divided. Or they ” took their faith out of the cross” Our faith is in Christ Jesus He is the crucified savior as well as the resurrected savior. So let me ask you when you sin… Have you taken your faith out of the cross? Or have you failed to yeild yourself as a living sacrifice unto God? I’ll let you decide but beware my friend seducers are loose and when the doctrines change many will not recognize. I’m not saying Jimmy is trying to lead anyone astray that only God knows but Gods word is His word.

      I will leave you with this last summer is when I knew they had gone way off track I heard the following with my own ears… One of their prominent ministers stated that a believer can be watching pornography and as long as their faith remains in the cross the sin nature is not controlling them. That is damnable error and very dangerous. I have also heard some of the youth minsters tell kids if your smoking a joint and your faith is in the cross you still have the victory.

      So let me evaluate this, they say that ” faith exclusively in the cross means perpetual victory” but you can also have faith in the cross and engage in sinful activity such as viewing pornagraphy or smoke joints. This is double speak and I would encourage you to spend some time in Gods word and search some things out, don’t be dazzled by personalities. Put the expositors away and just pick up Gods word and allow him to speak. Bless you AW and best wishes.

      • AW says

        John, with all due respect, what you are saying in respect to JSM ministries is simply not true. I believe that you have misunderstand what has been said. The simple matter is that there is no perfect human being upon the earth, christians included. The scripture does not say that after salvation we will no longer sin and the sad fact is that many christians are living a substandard christian life because they are in bondage to things like cigarrettes, alchohol, pornography, and the list goes on. I was one of those christians, that love the Lord with all of my heart but was failing in an area of my life that frankly I would’nt have wanted anyone to know about, did that mean that I was’nt saved, no I was saved and thats why I knew that the bondage and sin was wrong, I just did’nt know how to walk in Victory. It was through JSM ministries that I learned about law and grace and came to the understanding that my faith for victory really was’nt in the finished work of christ but rather it was in myself, trying to do something that only the Holy Spirit can do. Lastly, and for all that might visit this site, campmeeting is going on right now at Family Worship Center. I tuned in last night and was so blessed and encouraged because the Spirit of God was moving not only in praise and worship but in the preaching. It is really what the world needs at this moment. Burdens were lifted at Calvary!! Praise God.

        • John says

          Can you scripturally define all of the JSM terminology you throw around?
          What is the sin nature? What is it to be under “law”?
          What do you mean that sin remains in the life of the believer?
          Do you mean we are capable of yielding to the lust of the flesh and committing sin? Or do you mean we sin on a regular basis in word, thought and deed? So far in our communication you have not addressed one single area of scripture and instead you give me more JSMisms that they repetitively repeat day after day.

          Is this what they have taught you in 12 years? To parrot their words about law, grace, Christ crucified, works, depending on prayer life, bible study, church attendance. Or can you validate all of their claims in the word.

          Are they leading you to be a Christian in the ” full stature of Christ” as Paul said in Ephesians 4:13, are they building your faith that you ” be no more children tossed to and fro” vs 14. Or are they speaking ” great swelling words of vanity” as Peter would say in 11 Peter 2:18. Are they promising the people liberty while they themselves are slaves to corruption vs 19.

          Could it be that they ” teach things they ought not for filthy lucre sake” Titus 1:11.
          Could it be that Jimmy is claiming an exclusive knowledge of the cross that no one else has and you can’t get anywhere else because he wants you to be obligated to buy his commentaries, study guides, books and study bibles.

          First they say no one is preaching the cross like them on TV. That’s lie number 1 Joseph prince is teaching the same error, why don’t you go research yourself and grab a copy of his latest books. If you like JSM I Garanuntee you will love it. But no if they were concerned with the kingdom and the purity of the Gospel as they claim they would at least admitt he is preaching the same thing, however that would infringe upon their market share. It’s business AW. Wake up

          • AW says

            John, I really dont know where you are coming from. Where are you getting these things that your saying. Jimmy Swaggart ministries does not preach the same thing as Joseph Prince, matter of fact that have brought out the error in his teaching on their programing. As for addressing things scripturally, what exactly do I need to address scripturally. Tell me where JSM is teaching something unsciptural, you really havent given me anything concrete that is unscriptural, everything you have said thus far in relation to JSM and what they teach has not be factual, I know because I have listened to 100’s of hours of teaching and I know exactly where they stand, you have evidently misunderstood what they are teaching. What I do know, is that my relationship with the Lord is stronger today than ever and I know that Jimmy Swaggart doe’snt lift himself up or anyone in there ministry up but the Lord Jesus Christ. In a nut shell, they teach salvation by grace through JESUS Christ alone, the baptism in the HOLY SPIRIT with the evidence in speaking with other tongues as the spirit of God gives the utterance and that true victory over the sin nature is found by one keeping their faith anchored in the finished work of Christ because there is where Jesus defeated sin. Now, whats wrong with any of that, what part of that is unscriptural?

          • John says

            First of I’m am glad that you have a close relationship with the Lord, the only reason I would take the time to write you is that I have seen the destruction that is done by JSM. I am not at all misunderstanding their teaching I have seen it in detail, read as I have stated about 70% of the expositors including study notes. I have read also the revelation of the cross study guide and seen much of their programming.

            That being said Joseph Prince absolutely does teach what they do, they may have some differences here and their but basically they are in the same vein, faith in the finished work and get grace and all is well. Joseph Prince may have taken it slightly toward the word of faith direction claiming that if your faith is in the finished work of the cross you will have no sickness, no poverty ect ect. However JSM is coming very close to this line they regularly say “there is a new house in the cross for you” ” there is a new car in the cross for you” ” there is a raise of pay in the cross for you” or since you were so pleased with camp meeting I tuned in to hear Donnie say ” there is a motorcycle in the cross for you” as he was taking up the offering. I will state that Donnie seems to be the only one that has not totally gone off the ledge with this strange theology.

            What you are stating about victory being in the cross ect ect is correct from of theological standpoint. Yes I fully believe in the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Faith and grace is correct theologically, however their application of the cross faith and Grace has gone totally haywire. They are teaching a faith that requires no personal responsibility, they have said on many occasions that if you ” take your faith out of the cross” or ” don’t know the cross as the apostle Paul presented” which of course means their way, then satan overrides your will and brings you into sin. Well first off as I have already stated you can’t take your faith in and out of the cross. I would ask you for one scripture that states you can in fact take your faith in and out of ” the object of the cross”.

            The reason they have come to this conclusion is that they feel the sin nature is “to be controlled by ever keeping the cross your object of faith.”
            This is glaringly unscriptural because Romans is clear the sin nature is to be crucified that the body of sin be destroyed. Now I understand that Jimmy adheres to reformed theology and maintains that the sin nature remains and is a actual entity that always lives inside the believer. They maintain that the believer always grapples with the sin nature. This has been the teaching of reformed theology for centuries, the root of sin always remains and is constantly threatening to rise up and they maintain that somehow God receives glory by leaving this sinful root because its their for ” disciplinary purposes”.

            You didn’t actually think Jimmy came up with all this did you, this is common reformed theology which he freely states when he got the revelation that he did not know how the sin nature was to be controlled he was reading after reformed scholar Kenneth Wiest. I will say that Wiest is certainly very knowledgable and does have good insight into the Greek language, nonetheless he is a reformed theologian so that means once saved always saved and most held the view that we just sin a little everyday.

            Loren Larson clearly adheres to this because I have heard him say that sin is always present in the believers life. Now I don’t not share this view of the sin nature but I don’t wish to argue that. My personal belief is that the “sin nature” is simply the sin principle passed thru Adam as Paul outlines in the second half of the 5 th chapter of Romans.

            The sin principle is the reign and domination of sin in the heart of man. There has been sufficient redemption through the cross for this to be crucified and removed to the degree that our desire are no longer bent to sin. This does not mean that we are incapable of sin it means we are free from sin and free to yeild ourselves to God.
            Adam had no “sin nature” and that didn’t render him incapable of sin.

            However we can differ on that and no problem, that is my view as I am more of the Wesleyan flavor than the reformed.
            But what I do wish to show is that even the reformers of old understood that sin must be resisted and we must continually yeild to God and receive his Grace.
            For it is his grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldliness that we may live righteous in this present world. See Titus chapter 2.

            The ” finished work theory” renders any responsibility of the believer as unnecessisary. As I have already stated Jimmy did not come up with the finished work theory it was first propagated by William Dunham in the days of early Pentecost. It gained quite a following because of its simplicity, place your faith in the finished work and everything will take care of itself. The problem is that if you are in sin in areas of your life this does not encourage you to truly seek deliverance it simply encourages you to keep on going and when God is ready to deal with your sin he will get to it in his time, till then just wait. It creates a passivity and lax look at sin.

            There is no formula of putting your faith in the cross. The Christian life is a life of denying the will of the fleshly pleasure and yielding to God. Jesus said in John 17:17 sanctify them by thy truth thy word is truth. The agents of sanctification are the Word and the Holy Ghost, these are available through the redemptive provision that Christ provided at Calvary. Any sanctification that does not involve the word will be a sanctification that can’t stand, the Living word will cleanse and sanctify as Paul says in Ephesians 5.
            David said a man keeps his way pure by keeping Gods word in their heart that they may not sin against him.

            So the swaggart ministry has taken Gods grace and turned it into license to sin. The comment about viewing pornagraphy with you faith in the cross was not a misunderstanding. It was states. 2 weeks ago they were teaching that repentance is not something the believer needs to worry about because repentance gets in the way of your faith in the cross.

            Just last week their theology took another interesting turn as Jimmy begin to say that the active element of faith is belief. Loren Larson has latched onto this because he truly thinks that Jimmy is an apostle and basically correct in all that he says. Loren preached this in the camp meeting Thursday morn and even made the comment its not about obedience but about belief. His text was Hebrews 11:6. Maybe Loren should have read the rest of the chapter because the whole chapter bears out the active side of faith which is obedience. It gives many examples of the faith that Gods people had and the obedience that defied all human reason.

            The Swaggart’s are preaching a Antinomian Gospel that rejects responsibility and obedience as a key part of Libving for God, its only having a “revelation of the cross”
            You don’t have to believe me because their is a great deal of importance that comes from thinking you are a chosen one for Gods last great move. This is what swaggart brainwashes you with. No such move will come. Revival comes thru sobbing hearts crying for God in brokenness and not charismatic Preachers proclaiming it to be so.

        • John Galyon says

          and there ya go…my head has exploded, as once again…the old, worn out, completely lame excuse for sin being quoted…
          “The simple matter is that there is no perfect human being upon the earth, christians included.”….

    • T.Heim says

      AW- I’m truly amazed at the “pass” you give Swaggart! Here’s a guy who while preaching against sin, claiming he was filled with the baptism of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, and was a very public figure for the gospel, was dealing with a pornography addiction, committing adultery, visiting prostitutes, and at the same time calling out his brethren and condemning them for adultery! swaggert didn’t come clean on his own. only when he was forced did he confess! and he refused to submit to the discipline of his organization, which is biblical. now would you tolerate a teacher or policeman or politician, exhibiting those behaviors, continuing in their leadership role? why should we expect any less out of a gospel minister? yes God forgives all sin. but he does not guarantee a position of leadership! swaggart is discredited! and I’m stunned at the number of people who willingly follow and defend this ministry! you must have pretty low standards and feel that character doesn’t mean much!

      • James says

        Really! Biblical discipline as the AG sees it. What are you reading? No where is the AG style of “discipline” anywhere in scripture! Did Peter “step down” after attempting to kill Malcus the High Priest’s servant? Oh please! What a vile institution is man’s attempt at church governance!

        • T.Heim says

          Seriously? God gave instructions, through his Word, regarding church governance (Paul’s letter to Timothy, for example)! Governmental authority is established by God (secular and parochial). God works through people, through hierarchy, for the sake of order! Humans must have accountability. When a leader gets so arrogant to think that he/she no longer has to be accountable to anyone, destruction lies ahead! And people who are willing to follow ONE Delusional person who claims God talks to turning they are no longer to be questioned, are headed for the kool-aid! God gives each of us discernment, common sense, and He EXPECTS us to use them. He expects us to become educated, to learn from others, in order to become effective disciples for His Kingdom. If Swaggart had HUMBLED himself and sought spiritual help (from church leaders, and professional help (psychiatry, psychology, which are God-given medical disciplines), he may have found freedom from his porn addiction and saved himself the heartache, embarassment and disgrace he brought to himself, his family, AND the cause of Christ! His own ignorance, hubris, self-righteous delusion was his destruction!

        • T.Heim says

          Do you, seriously, think Swaggart should be held out in public as a representative of Christ and the church? You must be isolated somewhere! Swaggart has no ministry to people outside of fundamentalism ,(actually, a very small segment of fundamentalism). He is a laughing-stock…viewed as a lunatic, a hypocrite! It doesn’t matter that He’s found forgiveness to the world! He is a stumbling block for the gospel, a deterrent. He’s an embarrassment to the church IN THE ROLE HE PLACES HIMSELF. He should be sitting in the pews, out serving in a soup kitchen, or dealing one on one with people, with a humble spirit! He who humbled HIMSELF will be exalted! Go ahead and admire the guy, hand on his every word, soak up his “truths.” But, you look foolish!
          The AG would have absolutely NO CREDIBILITY if they didn’t Derrick him. I doubt ANY legitimate or main stream organization would credential him. I don’t see anyone inviting him to speak outside of FEC. If it wasn’t for his musical talent, I doubt he would have much of a following.

        • John says

          So, its vile to ask a man that has been caught with prostitutes to sit out and seek restoration for his sinful behavior?

          • James says

            John. The ONLY response is “what approach is biblical?” Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, in scripture is a ‘step down from ministry’ taught. The biblical approach is the individual members disassociating from the ‘unrepentant’ sinning christian. You see John, a Bishop (pastor) is the oversight of their individual fellowship. Paul gave rebuke, and threatened a front on confrontation, but never ever ever usurped the authority of the pastor over his flock and exercised some Apostolic “you must now stand aside from the ministry” power. The individual members dealt with the matter by writing to Paul for advice if needed, think fornication in Corinth, but not to remove leadership and only to restore the sinning members. The problem is denominational. There is no no no no denomination in scripture. The heirarchical Jewish structure is what Christ hated, thoroughly, and is what cricified him. When denominational leadership reject scripture and follow their denominational rule book, they ALWAYS do, then they are guilty of crucifying Christ. And will be judged accordingly! The only scriptural approach is individual fellowships (churches) dealing with sin as individual churches. The early church had Paul, and men like Paul, who travelled from city to city teaching as brothers. They corrected, and were corrected, by the scripture. What bound these churches was the love of Christ, exclusively and only, through scriptural instruction. You are no doubt shocked at how harsh I have been to T Heim. I will never repent for it. The reason is an underlying reliance upon a denominational belief. I noticed in you bio the same bent. John, harsh words are just that. Think Christ rebuking the Pharisees, Sadducees and Herodians. Did Christ need to attend his heart because it was full of hatred? Sarcasm, I know. Think about it. Did Christ’s, very very harsh rebuking show his hatred of them? Why then am I judged so by T Heim? I will tell you why. T Heim, and yourself perhaps, are unscriptural when it comes to comprehending fellowship. T Heim has shown a tollerance of error in Romans, and others, yet, correctly, confronts Swaggart and his gross errors. John, love always onfronts error. John, the christian is lonely person because no one speaks well of them. Foxes have holes, birds have nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head. Beware if all men speak well of thee. The improper view of fellowship tries to be friends with all people. Jesus was friends with those who followed him. There was never a closeness with any one else. Never ever. How many people associated with Christ while he hung on the cross. Pick up your cross and follow me daily. If you do not do this, you ARE NOT my disciple. John, I pray you see what I’m saying, and thank-you for, as yet, not doing a T Heim and unloading on me. You may not agree with me on all points, however remember, “what does the scripture say?”

        • John says

          I was unable to respond to your post in response to my question so Ill respond here. First off are you claiming that scripture bears no consequence for moral failure? If that is your position then we have no common ground. I am gathering that more Likely you feel the local church should deal with the problem. If that is the case then what is your scriptural basis for this? So who in the local church should deal with the Pastor and his failure? Is this to be left up to a vote? The church council? Deacons that have been confirmed? Who is this pastor accountable to? Ultimately he is accountable to Christ as the head of the church but you believe in no accountability either doctrinally or Morally? This is not a simple process or problem to deal with, their are positives and negatives about any model of church government. Even independent churches have a model of church government. Church history will show that there was always a back and forth as to what model is best. You have your congregationalist that rejected the idea of a ruling Bishop.However many other fellowships forming looked at the problems that congregationalist encountered and decided it was better to have ruling bishops. One of the main problems with the congregational approach is the power and controlling direction eventually begins to slide toward the laity or the church council. This hinders the pastor from following the vision that he feels God has given him. The problem with ruling bishops is that sometimes bishops become to controlling and hinder Gods operation in the local church or they become corrupt and compromising. So in 2000 years of church history we have yet to find a perfect model but it seems that you feel you have it all figured out. Is the correct? Do either of these models make the people within them either saved or damned? Of course not and you seem to have an angst and a bitterness toward organization or denominational structure. Do I feel denominations are without issues? Absolutely not i have seen people badly hurt within the denominational structures and the politics that go with it. However many have been won to the kingdom of Jesus Christ through the ministry of the denominations.

          Its evident James that you think in a black and white, concrete type of way. You have dogmatically claimed that T. Helm is a wolf in sheep’s clothing and have essentially sentenced him to hell. You have slammed his as someone who is promoting ” the ecumenical lie”. Do you know what the full scope of ecumenicalism entails? IT is obvious you view this as black and white, good or evil. I don’t say this to upset you or criticize you but you do not even understand what you are so assuredly condemning. There is a positive and negative side to ecumenical outlook. On one hand there being ecumenical for the sake of false unity. In other words it has no principle no guideline, and no restraint. We take no doctrinal stand and accept heresy along with sound doctrine and join together with all and sing a merry song of unity. We accept apostates as genuine brothers and sisters with no worry about doctrinal purity. This is a negative side of being ecumenical in which I do not agree with at all.

          There is also a positive side to being ecumenicist. This is where we strive for unity with all true believers, be it baptist, methodist, pentecostal, Catholic, presbyterian or anyone else. You seem to reject all within denominations. Can you honestly tell me that their are not true believers in these denominations. Church of God, Assemblies of God, Pentecostal Holiness, Church of God in Christ, Pentecostal Church of God, Baptist, Southern Baptist, United Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, United Pentecostal Church. These are just a few and I believe that all of these and many more that I have not named are the affiliation of millions of true christians. Do I agree with every detail that they all teach? No, does that mean that none involved in these have found salvation in Jesus? Of course not. Do I agree with the structure and practice of the Catholic church? No, however I know without a shadow of a doubt there are those within the Catholic church that truly are part of the body of christ and while I don’t agree with many of their beliefs and I will not compromise my personal doctrinal convictions I also will not rail out and blast Children of God for whom Jesus gave his all. Jesus is the head of the church, not me, not you and as Jesus I want to strive for unity when at all possible. I know there are times that its not possible however James you seem very quick to write people off and dismiss them because they don’t see things from your point of view. Jesus does not save people because of their point of view, he saves all that will call upon the name of the Lord and repent of their sin and strive to live their life committed to him.

          James your attitude is not in line with the Spirit of Christ. The Samaritans were the Heretics of their day, They did not believe in Gods word properly and in fact in many ways had mixed biblical truth with their own ideas and values. John and his brother wanted to call down heaven and destroy them. Jesus said ” ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the son of man did not come to destroy mens life but to save them.” In acts 8 John changed by the Love of God and full of His Holy Spirit and went and laid hands on these same heretical Samaritans and prayed that they receive the Holy Ghost. I wold just encourage you that Jesus has redemption in his eyes and not Judgment. He definitely has to pour out Judgment at times but Redemption is his purpose. So just maybe some of these people that you are so quick to slam will one day be your brother or sister in the Lord so be careful who you condemn and who you vow to never repent for condemning.

          • James says

            Reject the unfruitful works of darkness and reprove them. Jesus did not set up a denomination. Yes I am black and white where scripture teaches this and I will not, ever, be denominational. It is a false arguement to assert that there is no perfect church governance model. The problem is, clearly, that God gives direction in his church still, as in the original church post resurrection, or he doesn’t. Do you interpret scripture literally where a literal interpretation is possible or just use whatever is between your ears or what others have taught you. To question if I believe there is no moral responsibility relating isa little bemusing. It is patently clear from that assertion that you believe there is no morality outside of established denominations. Utter folly. Tell me. What denomination did Jesus found. There is no diversity in christianity. Just christianity. There certainly is diversity in doctrine, however what makes a believer is non-negotiable. To include Romish superstition as a part of christianity is sin. You obviously do not know anything of Romish belief. To overlook the agregious cultic practices of the whore of Rome yet criticize me for a ‘narrow’ view is straining at gnats, and swallowing camels. Rome does not teach biblical salvation. Read: ROME DOES NOT TEACH BIBLICAL SALVATION!!! You confuse individual Roman Catholic people with the Popish Roman system. I condemn the Roman Catholic faith. Roman Catholic people must work out their salvation with fear and trembling, as the scripture teaches. It is by grace through faith, and not of yourselves, but the gift of God. Rome teaches that it is the sin of presumption to believe faith saves. That is what Roman Catholics are taught! Roman Catholics cannot be saved while believing Roman Catholic doctrine. THEY CANNOT BE SAVED WHILE STAYING IN THE ROMAN CHURCH. If they are saved, if they have true believing faith, Rome says they have sinned and are damned! I love the people, I hate the system. I HATE ALL FALSE WAYS. John, harsh words, I know. I repent not from them. As for biblical proof of church discipline, I am on my smart phone and cannot jump from this browser to my bible programme to double check so I’ll do the unforgivable and take from memory. I am out and do not have access to a bible. Yes I vehemently reject any system of man’s discipline. Yes all discipline are matters for the local church only. Question: Would you at all stay in a fellowship with an unrepentant pastor? Ok. Then how is he dealt with. Like Scottish Presbyterianism began as, the scripture teaches a fellowship of fellowships. Teachers of ability can bless other fellowships with ministry however the emphasis is always biblical doctrine. That is the only light binding all believers. Paul, Apollas, Cephas, Aquila and Precilla, Luke, etc were all accepted teachers who travelled between various cities to minister. Paul, as apostle, was perhaps respected above many of his peers, but only because he never lorded over his brethren. He was servant of all, as Christ was. This was the model initially of the Presbyterians in Scotland when under the ban of Rome when the numbers were thinned continually through murder, imprisonment and starvation. Persecution is the refiners fire. That model was perhaps the closest, historically, to the biblical model that I have seen. What occurred later was a denomination caused by growth. Instead of independant churches, submitted to each other through love, people held to the name presbyterian, not christian. The problem was perhaps negligible to begin with however over decades believers were identifying as presbyterians, not christians. They would say “I presbyterian” and not “I’m a christian” . Discipline was dealt with locally, and by constant pastoral visits by travelling minsters pastors were dealt with. If they did not repent, the whole church rejected him. Simple. More painful than an outsider just removing him, but it is biblical. 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 3. Your response was lengthy and I can’t recall all your points, so I hope that covers most of it. As for condemning T Heim, not at all. The error I see I comdemn, as for the person, I’ll leave all judgements to God. My feeling of a Jesuitical influence, I hold to. Ultimately, God will judge.

          • T.Heim says

            Thank you so much! Excellent response(s)! I read your response to James as well. I agree with you completely regarding the peaks and pitfalls of “ecumenical” and on Church governance. I think people forget that the Bible doesn’t spell out everything, and not everything in the Bible is “prescriptive!” Some is just descriptive.

            I agree strongly with your last paragraph on sinning after salvation. I believe as we grow in the Lord, He reveals areas of our lives that are problematic/sinful and, as we surrender our will, we are changed, perfected, become more Christ-like. I think where many go wrong is the focus on “acts of sin” as in vices, moral/character failure, etc. But, becoming more Christ-like not only involves abstaining from sinful acts, but “acting” more like Christ…less selfishness, more giving, more self-sacrifice, less wasting our time on “things below” rather than on the Kindgom of God, and also, fully enjoying the beauty of life, God and His Creation. The Arminian theologian I mentioned earlier (my relative) recently wrote a multi-part blog series on “The Christian World-view” (including a: is there such a thing? b: if so, what is it? c: how does it differ with “confession of faith” etc). It was very interesting. One of the bullet points is: “the glory of God is the human fully alive!” I believe God’s desire is for us to exist is this perfect state: sinless, disease free, healthy and whole in mind, body, spirit, and in vibrant, unbroken, loving fellowship with God, enjoying Him completely! This relationship begins when we say Yes! to Jesus, and culminates at the resurrection, continuing for eternity! So, our “walk” with Christ on earth is the beginning of our eternal life, as we are changed from “glory to glory.” It’s not just about “not sinning.” It’s loving people like Jesus loved them…which I could argue is more difficult than abstaining from sin! Fundamentalists (like the Swaggarts) justify their “legalism” with the verse “Love not the world, neither the things of the world……” I’m sure you know how it goes. Their definition of the “world” is vices e.g. drinking alcohol, smoking, nightclubs, casinos, movie theaters, dances, etc. I think God meant loving the “values” of the world, e.g. power, greed, wealth, lust, pride, as satan is the prince of this world. We are to “value” the “kingdom of God” more than we value our personal “kingdom’ in this world. I think it’s sinful to strive after money and wealth, power, recognition, influence over people under the “cover” of preaching the gospel! I think it’s as sinful to eat poorly, not exercise, over exercise, fail to rest properly, etc, as it is to abuse alcohol or drugs, etc. I think it’s sinful to be MORE religiously diligent about church “attendance” than it is to be faithful to fulfilling your obligations to your family, or seeing that the needs of people around you are met, etc. In my experience, the less I focus on myself, the more time I have to “look for” and/or become aware of needs around me, and when I’m involved with meeting those needs, I have less time to get “involved” with sinful endeavors. The Holy Spirit within us guides us in the right “kingdom” direction. He empowers, provides wisdom, comforts, etc. Scripture tells us that we’ve been given the “armor of God,” and if we put it on, we can defeat what Satan brings against us. God has provided the “tools.” These are the tangible things that I wish Swaggart et al would preach/teach about, instead of saying “the cross, the cross, the cross! I wonder who they think their audience is? They try to sound like they are teaching a seminary class on a deep, theological topic. Swaggart said such on yesterday’s program, claiming “the message of the cross is so deep that it goes over the head of most pastors, most christians.” That’s why they had to keep saying it over and over, every day, until people “get it!” (whatever “IT” is). Anyway, enough on that…

            I would like to go back to your comments on adultery / homosexuality. The White’s are just one perfect example of un-Biblical remarriages and divorces! As you are probably aware, there are some theologians/pastors who don’t believe that Jesus was giving an “exception” for divorce, defining that reason as unfaithfulness of one partner. That “exception” only appears in one account (Matthew 19). Some this that the Greek word “porneia” can mean sexual immorality prior to the marriage, or during the betrothal period (the wife turns out not to be a virgin, so married under false pretenses). It does seem strange that Jesus would give an “excuse” for divorce, when, based on his teachings on forgiveness, redemption and grace, and God’s “hate” of divorce, it would be required (especially if both partners are christians) to forgive and reconcile (which is the case in many circumstances)! Violence, abuse would be much more “reasonable” reasons for a divorce “exception.” And the most common teaching that I’m aware of concerning Paul’s passage in Corinthians is that he was addressing the issue of couples who were already married before they became a Christian. The church was thinking that the believing spouse should divorce the unbelieving spouse to prevent being “unequally yoked.” Paul said no, if the unbelieving spouse wants to stay married, they should stay married. So, bottom line, the Bible is against divorce, and they may/may not be any exceptions. (The truth is, most marriages end for reasons other than adultery). However, if a divorce allowed, the couple is NOT released from the vows. Therefore, remarriage is out of the question (unless you remarry your spouse). Which means celibacy for life, or until one spouse dies! If Bible-believing Christians really believed this, don’t you think the end result would be fewer divorces? or perhaps more careful consideration with selecting a spouse? Would the marital problems be considered so horrible, if the individuals were facing life-long celibacy? I think that when the divorce rate among CHRISTIANS is no different than the rest of the population, we’re demonstrating just how “seriously” we actually take the Word of God. We have demonstrated that we are going to do what we want to do (hardness of heart), and even if by remarriage we commit adultery, well, God forgives, right? Yes He does! I certainly understand that “two wrongs don’t make a right.” Both homosexuality and adultery are sin. BUT, you appear to believe that one can be forgiven and one cannot. It appears that you believe that homosexual sin is “worse” than heterosexual sin. You said that we have to “leave it in the hands of the Lord.” So, if we don’t know what the Lord thinks of people living in adultery, how can we say we know what the Lord thinks of people living in a same-sex relationship? It is definitely “up to the Lord” so to speak, but I believe our doctrines, our behavior toward sinners has to be consistent! I mean, there is more to a homosexual couple’s relationship than just sex! Medical science can’t currently tell us exactly why /how this deviation occurs. There is much more going on here than just a “simple choice.” People are choosing a same-sex relationship because they are somehow being driven to it! When we think about our heterosexual desires, and how “natural” they are, isn’t it possible that homosexuals have this same “natural desire?’ We can’t get into each other’s heads to know what it’s like for the other, and sexuality is a very basic, and emotionally charged issue. I have personally been touched by divorce, remarriage and homosexuality within the lives of close family members. We are Christians, and know what the Bible teaches. But we also know and see how the “body of Christ” is dealing with these issues in practical terms. And there is a very clear message….there is “forgiveness, tolerance, grace and acceptance for adultery (heterosexual sin), but not for homosexual sin! Is it any wonder why the church has no credibility on this issue? The world doesn’t respect the church and what it has to say about marriage, because of the lack of respect we have for “God’s design” for marriage! It looks like we just don’t like homosexuals! I really believe that the “church” is being confronted by our own lax behavior. I have lived, worked and had friendships with many homosexuals. One couple has been together for 30+ years! They are sweet, decent, loving, caring, interesting people. Most of them aren’t believers, but they’re not likely to become believers when they see how hostile the church is toward their lifestyle, but how tolerant the church is toward heterosexual adulterers! And I can’t help but think that, if they did accept Christ, would Christ make them break up a 30 year relationship in order to “stop sinning?” If we think so, then the same would have to apply to an adulterous, 30 year heterosexual marriage. Otherwise, that is a double standard…hypocrisy…and wrong, in my opinion! If I can have a relationship with Jesus Christ, find forgiveness, be blessed, serve in the church, all as a remarried, divorced person, I can’t imagine that cannot be true for my family members who love God and are burdened with same-sex attraction. I’m not denying that a person with same-sex attraction cannot be “healed” or changed, and I think that a serious Christian (fully desiring to do the Will of God and follow Christ) would/should choose that path. It’s clear some of them do, but after years of “struggling,” will give up and enter a homosexual relationship. But, those who don’t, shouldn’t they be extended “grace” and “understanding” just like a heterosexual divorced person who cannot see themselves living without companionship and sex for the rest of their lives?

            As you said to James, life isn’t “black and white!” It’s messy! I know it easy, and many of us desire to live by absolute, concrete truth! It’s easy to say “that’s right, that’s wrong.” But, we’re dealing with imperfection, with complex human beings, with a fallen and sinful world, with people who have wide variations in weaknesses and abilities. The answers aren’t easy. But, I do know that, as Christians, we are to deal with everything in a loving, compassionate, understanding way, always considering how WE would like to be treated! I don’t expect you to have an “answer!” But, ever since I read the article about Power’s comments (actually, much further back than that…when it came to my attention that a dear loved one was gay), I have really been looking for answers, and I really didn’t like what I saw coming through the comments of “Christians” on that blog! This is a “hot” topic right now in the church, and I think we have dealt with it poorly.

            I don’t know what you think of Rick Joyner and Morningstar ministries (I think he’s a false prophet), but he has an association with a “faith healer/revivalist” named Todd Bentley. Bentley recently divorced his wife (they have 2 children), and married an “intern” from his ministry. This caused an uproar in the church (for which I’m grateful…at least some still hold to Biblical principles). Joyner posted a series of videos on his website documenting the “restoration process of Todd Bentley.” It’s totally ridiculous….Joyner and Bentley go on and on about how God hates divorce, THEY hate divorce, etc. Joyner even claims that “GOD IS DIVORCED.” (I guess because He “divorced” Israel). He claims that God and Israel will be “remarried” in the future, so somehow that’s how divorce and remarriage is justified! APOSTATE! Anyway, now that they went through these “hours and hours” of rehashing all the reasons for why he divorced (still didn’t justify the remarriage part), they said he’s “restored” and ready to minister again…along with the new, younger wife! I find it despicable! At the same time, of course, they speak out AGAINST gay marriage! I’ve seen videos of Bentley’s “miracle” revivals! They are crazy! In one, his wife claims she had a dream/vision where Oral Roberts came and spoke to her and prophetically revealed some things to her (totally anti-Biblical). In the middle of her story, she starts rapidly twisting her head back and forth, whipping her long hair back and forth violently! She gave no explanation why that happened. She kept going on with her story, then would start with the head/neck whipping thing….it looked like demon possession! Anyway, they are still going from city to city in the US holding their “revivals!” I guess he’s pretty well-known in “pentecostal” circles.

            I look forward to hearing from you whenever you have time. By the way, are you a pastor or seminary professor or teacher of some sort? You seem to be quite knowledgeable about Biblical issues. I’m a lay person, involved with the worship team and Bible studies etc. at my church. And I’m surrounded by theologians & pastors in my personal life! God Bless!

          • James says

            2 Peter 1:3 God’s divine power allows for all life and godliness. There is nothing outside of God’s word, pertaining to a believers life and his conduct. There is no wisdom for a believer outside of God’s word. Ever.

          • T.Heim says

            2 Peter 1:3 God’s divine power allows for all life and godliness. There is nothing outside of God’s word, pertaining to a believers life and his conduct. There is no wisdom for a believer outside of God’s word. Ever.

            But, there aren’t “specifics” on everything. The Bible gives us truth about God (not everything about God), conduct, redemption and reconciliation with God, but the “details” must be worked out. We aren’t in “Biblical Times” historically, technologically or scientifically. New knowledge, new questions must be dealt with and reconciled with the truth of scripture. Believers today must be much more educated in order to communicate the gospel message in a relevant and credible way. We are 2000 years past the “budding” church of Paul and the apostles! The church has triumphed and failed at various times. False teachers abound in our day! We now have a 2000 year history, experiences, and a body of knowledge developed by the great minds of godly men and women. One cannot be “wise” if one doesn’t learn from the past, and isn’t up to date with current knowledge. There is nothing in scripture that prohibits “institutions!” One of my husband’s degrees is in sociology. He is always evaluating the way human organizations, societies and cultures develop. It’s a natural process! Human beings are fallible, even if they are educated and wise. Jesus describes his church as a BODY, one being composed of many parts. However, a body has a “command center.” It is organized, and there is a hierarchy. Organizations/denominations aren’t good or bad in of themselves. It’s the people involved that determines that. Successful organizations have structures that promote a healthy environment. Every denominational or ministerial implosion can always be traced back to human failure and a lack of proper protective procedures. Why do you think God gave us such phenomenal brains, if He didn’t intend for us to use them for His Kingdom? The Bible is the blueprint! We build the church! The body doesn’t all look the same, function the same. And, bodies evolve. Your dogmatic musings don’t allow for any of that God might as well have created robots built exactly the same. That appears to be your view of the church. I have no idea what your background is…if you’re involved in a church, have pastoral experience, a lay person. The Catholic church is not the only church with false / questionable doctrines! Yet, your anger seems to be directly aimed at that institution alone! I have to assume that you feel you’ve been personally hurt in some way by the Catholic church. The Bible clearly teaches not to let “the sun go down” on your wrath. We are also to have a spirit of forgiveness and to release resentment. If you view the Catholic church as an enemy, the Bible teaches you are to pray for your enemies. So, I hope you will be continually in prayer for Catholics, that God will pour His Love into your heart for them, and that you will be free from this bondage of anger and hatred! I have to do that with people like the Swaggarts. I could easily let this become personal, because I have had anger and resentment toward the hurts I experienced by the church of my childhood (which is like a carbon copy of FWC)! But, that’s not healthy! I have gone to the Swaggarts directly with my concerns, and they will not receive any correction, they are not open to the possibility that they are in error. So, the only thing left is to warn others whenever and wherever I can. As I’ve said before, I hope you can find some peace.

          • James says

            What dribble. God’s word is complete pertaining to what is needed to live godly lives in all circumstance. Your, and John’s, unbelief is astounding. You do not believe God’s word contains all of the answers required for of time. Technology, more questions are irrelevant. Solomon said, “there is nothing new under the sun”. You would however, have to trust God in interpreting that. Your unbelief is fed by your denominational affiliation, which of course promotes and uses psychology to ‘understand’ man and his malady. Well sin is sin, and it never changes. Oh poor me. I’m so unsophisticated. I must be from the south. I am such a poor christian because I trust God’s revealed truth as expressed exclusively in his word, rejecting man’s demonic wisdom. I guess Christ was incomplete when he hung on the cross, he needs modern ‘christian’ to fill in his gaps. I guess “it is finished” as some of Christ’s last words were only valid when the apostles were still alive. Now I understand your willingness to accept Rome and its continual “revelations” through the centuries. Mormons are christian too! Jw’s? Misunderstood! Oh let’s play happy families as we all (less little ‘ole intollerant me of course) march happily through them gates ‘o pearl to the lervin’ arms ‘o Jaysus! It’s hard work, bein’ from ther south an all. I is a juss trussin’ in dem lervin’ words o’ Jaysus an neva beleevin’ in dem words ‘o man! Phew! No no no. Those early Presbyterians were obviously hicks, maybe even rednecks when proclaiming sola scriptura!!! Lord Jesus, deliver your church from fickle deniers and judge righteous judgement I pray, in Jesus name!!!

          • T.Heim says

            I can’t determine whether you are willfully ignorant, or just like to argue. So, this is my final response to you.
            You show extreme intellectual dishonesty to try to take what I said and apply it to “the atonement.” The price for redemption is paid, that work is complete. The Bible doesn’t address modern biotechnology, such as in-vitro fertilization, cloning, surrogacy arrangements, abortion, etc. These things have moral implications where there is no specific biblical direction. Medical science, psychology, discoveries in the universe, etc. are constantly presenting new evidence that causes the church to occasionally adjust doctrine. It’s clear that the earth is not 6000 years old, that creation was not 7 literal days, etc. None of these things make the Bible untrue, but scientific facts reveal GOD (and I mean “facts” NOT scientific theory). So, we have to adjust our perspective based on new information. Orthodox doctrine doesn’t change, however…God is triune, Jesus, the incarnation, born of a virgin, Jesus resurrection, Jesus return to earth, eternal life, etc. So, yes, education is extremely crucial to authentic Christianity, and so is examined faith. If you refuse to embrace reason, critical thinking, you are in danger of being misled. Close-mindedness is the direct pathway to error. You will never gain respect, or have any credibility to share to the gospel with the attitude you have. You have no credibility with me, and you clearly aren’t interested in dialogue, which is the hallmark of all who think they know everything and can’t be wrong. Right at this moment, I’m listening to Donnie Swaggart screeching (preaching) saying “we don’t need 12-step, or AA, or your effeminate psychologists, you can take your AA programs and your effeminate psychologists and stick them where the sun don’t shine.” That is a direct quote! Now, that is ugly, arrogant ignorance, and bigotry! He caught himself a few minutes later and said, “did I really say that?” And then he went on…”It’s amazing what I’ll say under the ANNOINTING!” These people are a disgrace! Today, the Frances & Friends program was a rerun–Jimmy was the “guest” and it was 2 hours of the most ignorant, stupid, ridiculous, false doctrine, misinterpreted scripture, self-promoting braggadocious program yet! I don’t think there was one truthful, accurate or biblical thing said the entire 2 hour period! If I didn’t know better, I would think their programming is some kind of satirical reality TV show! They remind me of the “honey Boo Boo” reality show (the little girl was cute and sweet, but the rest of them fit the “southern” hick stereotype). The point is, the road to destruction is paved with spiritual pride, ignorance, hubris, arrogance, and a “know-it-all” attitude! Get off that road.

          • James says

            You love a lie and hate the truth. No wonder you have such an idiotic view on divorce. If there was not a literal seven days of creation, and we are learning more everytime a new discovery comes along the earth is not, approximately six thousand years old then God is LIAR. You serve another Jesus, another gospel. Matthew 19, which you quoted with your brother John, gives clear teaching on divorce. One problem. Jesus said, as it was in the beginning. You know, creation. That allegory you despise, looking benevelantly down upon as not literal. There are dozens of Psalms referring to “the God of creation”. Obviously God couldn’t have known how “wise” man would become like that vile God hater Hawking, and cause doubt to believers causing them to cast of their faith. You are ignorant one. Woe unto you when all men speak well of thee. So much for “you’ll never have credibility!” Integrity before God is all I, and faithful believers, will ever care for! Did Jesus back down from a defence of truth (arguement in your lexicon), nope. What about Paul? Did he try to win ’em by bein’ like ’em? Nope! A bit different from your foolishness! I love, read love, defending God’s word. The greatest enemies of God’s are those who question the veracity, validity of his word. You say, like your god, “hath God said?” I will comment continuously on your comments, directed at me or not, from this time forth. Good day, heretic!

          • T.Heim says

            You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension! Did I say the Word of God isn’t true? Did I say God is not the creator? Scripture has supreme authority. Scripture must be INTERPRETED! You remind me of the guy who was convinced he is dead. He goes to the psychiatrist who tries everything to convince him he is not dead. Finally, the shrink asks, “Do dead men bleed?” The guy agrees that dead men don’t bleed. So the shrink takes out a knife and pricks the guy’s finger. The guy replies, “What do you know, dead men DO bleed!!”

            The reality of the universe proves that the universe was NOT created in 7 literal 24-hour days! Period! The facts are that light travels at 186,262 miles per second. From that, distances can be determined, and time can be measured. Indisputable scientific fact! The “light-year” measures how far light travels in a year. That fact alone tells you that the earth isn’t 6000 years old, as the closest star to our sun is trillions of light-year’s away! You do recall, don’t you, that historically, humans thought the earth was flat. The new information that the earth was round was a huge disruption in Christian doctrine. Do you have any science or history background? Perhaps you should do some reading.

            A good book to start is one by Robert Jeffress, called “How can I Know?” He quotes Dr. Charles Ryrie’s definition of “inerrancy,” The Bible tells the truth, and truth can, and does include “approximations, free quotations, language of appearances, and different accounts of the same even, as long as those do not contradict.” So, in answer to your question, Is God a Liar? No! So, if God doesn’t lie, if His Word is true, and reality tells us that the universe is trillions of years old, then perhaps the problem is YOU, and your misunderstanding of scripture! You referred to the Genesis account as an “allegory.” You are correct! So, do you understand what an allegory is?

            When we create a “God of our understanding,” WE create “another Jesus!” Basically, it’s idolatry! As the saying goes, “God created man in His own image, and ever since, man has been attempting to return the favor!”

            I hope you learn something by reading the words of others, but I’m not holding my breath, as you seem as hard-hearted and hard-headed as a slab of granite.

          • James says

            Firstly, you did respond when you said you wouldn’t. Small point. As for comprehension, I did state, to John I believe, that I’m on a smart phone and haven’t the capacity to look back at what was written. I don’t know why however that’s the way the browser functions. Another small point. I also used the term allegory in mockery of you, cleaf if read with some ‘comprehension’ ! Two small points. I find it interesting you ondemn me in harshness yet you are highly critical of me being harsh. Another small point.I’m sure there are more points to make, however I can’t cross-referrence as I stated. I’ll add more as I re-read your post.

          • T.Heim says

            My prayer for you is that God will bless you with a fresh revelation of His mercy, grace and love, that He will help you to know how to allow His agape love to flow through you, that the wisdom of the scriptures will open up in a fresh, clear way, and that you will fulfill the purpose in His Kingdom for which you were called. This is my prayer not only for you, but for myself and all who read these words! Amen!

          • James says

            Thank-you T Heim. I will accept that prayer. I remember a time somewhere about 1997 when I was in a denomination temple when after service, in front of about 200 people, I went forward for prayer. You see, the leadership were rather controlling and I had started to shrink back from their prying advances upon myself, and my family. I had enquired at the scriptural authority they claimed which had irritated some higher up. Anyway, as I stood there, a strange thing took place. Instead of asking me for what I wanted prayer, this man who was one of the higher ups, launched into a rebuking type prayer. I’m sure you know the type. Telling God, not beseeching him. I stayed calm and respectfully closed my eyes, and he prayed something similar to your stated words in your post. It caused a stir because only one was praying and it wasn’t hushed. Rather voluminous you might say. As the prayer progressed it became obvious that this man was angry at me, and was only trying to rebuke/embarrass me infront of my fellows. Strangely I liked what he was saying, because the words were so similar to what I had always prayed post conversion. I even liked it, knowing God would honour my faith, and raised my hands and started quietly saying amen, yes Lord, humble me, grow me, mature me, teach me your ways, etc. My affirmation of his prayer grew louder and more definate which totally bamboozled my attackers within the temple to the point they totally shut up shortly there after. You see, I’m not affraid of God, or his word. He will not hurt me to destroy me nor curse me because of the alterior motives of those who hide behind feigned humility. I think you have point.

          • James says

            It is quite amusing to see how you intentionally confuse me with the heretical Swaggarts et al. Is it your way (the only pathway to truth and enlightenment) versus Swaggart and ilk like him? Could there be another option? Despise error, Swaggart’s and yours, and believe sola scriptura. I can’t help others and what they say. I don’t particularly care either. Many, including Swaggart and miriads like him through the millenia, have claimed the same. I’m not like him. Some beliefs are obviously similar. I believe that God is three in one, 1 John 5:7. Apparently so does Rome. Am I joined to Rome because of superficial similarity. Elephants have ears, I have ears – ergo: I’m an elephant! This is your logic. You despise Swaggart and his error, yet listen regularly to his erroroneous teaching? “Take heed what you here” Christ said. You, praytell, are the one who loves to argue!

          • T.Heim says

            I meant to leave a link with you. Dr. Olson is a personal friend. His recent post outlines a very wise methodology to be used by the church in order to come to decisions concerning issues that confront the church today. This addresses much of what I have been trying to convey to you. Perhaps it will be helpful for you.
            {I edited out the address- for the most part I do not allow links unless it is something I personally approve of and I will have to admit that in this case I do not}

          • James says

            Name dropping has never impressed me. As for that I too can drop a name. It may not mean much to you however. How’s Jesus The Christ. Yeh, I know him. He knows me. Anyway, as for methodology, that taught by men can certainly been useful but generally to follow all of a man’s methodology is to follow a man and his logic. God gave me a mind. The scripture renews it. Where there is error, God through his spirit corrects it. This is the difference beyween you Father Heim, and I. You revere men. I prefer to fellowship with them. The reverence I give is as a brother loving them as fellow labourers. All I owe anyone as a believer, is love. There is no greater gift to give because it incorporates my death in their place as Christ did for me. I cannot know someone as brother unless I speak with them. Associate with them. Fellowship with them. I learnt this fact when as a follower of Swaggly I gave him love as a brother yet ultimately realized I didn’t know him personally. He is at best now, an enigma. I see in scripture the same idea. The brethren that aren’t known you are prepared to love, yet you love them as yourself. I correct myself via the word of God, through the agency of the Spirit of God. I offer the same criticisms of the brethren as myself. There is no mote in your eye I remove, that the beam thereof in my eye hasn’t already been removed. You treat me, and others I might add, as uncouth yokels. My first criticism of you was correcting this bigotry in you, you may remember. All from the South, as Swaggart, aren’t well educated, you claimed. Our tate-au-tate stemmed from that. Your response was rather vitriolic to say the least. Anyway. Your turn.

          • James says

            I must say I’m a little confused after re-reading your post. You leave me a link to a helpful methodology of scriptural interpretation yet you remove the link because it is something you don’t agree with? Who’s methodology is faulty again?

          • T.Heim says

            James, I didn’t remove the link. If it has been removed, it was likely done by the blog administrator, which is her prerogative, as this site belongs to her.

          • James says

            T.Heim. I can’t believe I missed your comments of 27 June 2014. Your views on Sodomites and filthy women is demonic. Very ecumenical of you. The anti-christ is coming and YOU WILL recieve him. You are so deceived!

  8. AW says

    I dont know any other way to say it but you really do not know what you are talking about. None of what you are accusing the Swaggarts of is true, I am a member of their church and hold them in very high regard. The attitude that you are ascribing to Jimmy Swaggart is simply not true, much of what you have said is really taken out of context. For example, what you mentioned about there being a motorcycle in the cross, all that they are saying is that at Calvary, Jesus made it possible for God to Bless us and meet our needs and that is only made possible through what Christ did at the cross. If you will listen to all that is said, they always emphasize that its God who decides how he blesses one, whether that is monetarily, materially, spiritually, or physically. Also, in reference to addressing things that you have said scripturally, you have not really given me anything that was accurate in respect to what they teach, you have sort of added a twist to it and I know that its not true because as I have mentioned I am part of the church and ardently study the word of God with them and for myself personally, so I know what they teach. Lastly, and I know that you dont know me so really you just have to take it for what I am telling you know. Since sitting under the ministry of Jimmy Swaggart, I have found victory over the bondages of sin that plagued my life, I have a regular pray life, and I love the word of God more today than ever before. Is’nt that a good thing? So, for me this site is really not proclaiming the truth about JImmy Swaggart ministries, I dont think the Lord would be very pleased by this site at all. Also, I got here through Apostacy Watch which also has a section in regards to Brother Swaggarts failures in the past. Why would a site do that, especially something that was so long ago and what if Jimmy Swaggart has asked the Lord to forgive him for that and its underneath the blood now. Dont you think the Lord is awfully displeased with someone posting that hurtful information.

    • John says

      I did not assume that we would agree but hopefully I have at least given you things to think about and look into on your own. One simple thing that you could address is giving me one scripture that states believers can in fact place their faith in and out of the cross, in the cross victory, out of the cross “sin nature” runs wild. This isn’t found in Gods word. As to me taking things out of context, I was not because telling people that ” a new house, car, raise in pay, motorcycle” is in the cross is ridiculous, I don’t care what the context is, yes through redemption we have spiritual blessings and God will meet out material needs, nowhere are we promised new houses, cars or better Jobs. Quite contrary Jews in the early church lost their houses, Jobs and postions in the community for the cause of Christ. Thankfully that has not happened in America, but we don’t have an American Gospel or and African gospel or a Chinese Gospel, their is one Gospel and I assure knowing some American preachers that have traveled to china and preached in their underground churches those believers are not finding raises in pay, new houses or cars in the cross, what they have found is redemption for their soul and eternal life and some find themselves in prison and even killed. The Swaggart’s Gospel is a very powerless Gospel that can’t and won’t stand against persecution. Jimmy also states that Christian suffering has been totally misunderstood by the church and their is no suffering( don’t believe me, think I’m taking out of context then look at his Philippians commentary 3:10 and you will see) and all the suffering has been done by Christ and for us its just blessing, blessing, blessing. Well that sounds nice but if your going to truly live for Christ even in America their will be times of suffering, Paul said all that live Godly in Christ suffer persecution. Peter said he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. No we are not saved and sanctified by any physical suffering but at times we suffer people speaking ill of us and speaking lies about us, this no doubt is suffering to the flesh, because the flesh wants to get even. However Peter said its better to suffer for well doing than for evil doing.

      You don’t have to research reformed theology, finished work doctrine or any of the other things I have brought to your attention that is up to you, but when you have those small checks in your spirit about the swaggart organization and their money making operations you need to listen to them.

      JSM truly grieves me, they are so exalted in Pride thinking they are the only ones with the ” right message” that the last great move of God will take place through their TV cameras and that the church has been in darkness concerning sanctification until Jimmy. It is sad, because Pride and arrogance is suffocating that ministry once again. As I have said before not much has changed since the 80s.

      Now as far as bringing up his past sin, I have never done that nor would I, the only relevant issue I would take with his past is that it should cause believers to be very decirning with his present. A man who could call his brother a cancer in front of the whole nation just to find out months later that he was living in gross sin, is a man whose arrogance and power had blinded and mamed him much like Sampson of old. Jimmy is no doubt called of God and a very gifted man, but in my opinion it seems his self serving tactics that sunk his the first time have not really left him but have in fact resurphaced now that he has a large audience once again. It just seems jimmy has never really though anybody had it quite like him

      • John says

        John, lets be fair. You are saying that they are proclaiming that they are the only ones with the right message and thats simply not true. There statement is that they are not aware of anyone with a platform such as JSM, a worldwide ministry, is preaching the cross, for not only salvation, but as the means for sanctification. I happen to agree with that statement, because the other major christian network, TBN, is just simply full of error and to be honest, how any christian can watch what is promoted on that network without feeling a check in there spirit, I can not understand. It truly is all about money, and nothing is really preached that will truly help people. That network grieves me. Nevertheless, JSM never comes off as trying to say that they are the only ones with the truth, that attitude is not there. I would ask you to take a month and watch the telecast with an open and sincere heart and if after that month you still feel the same way, then ok, but give them a chance. No matter what anyone says, as for me and what I have struggled with as a christian and not getting victory over particular sins in my life, that is a life of pure misery and JSM ministies has helped me see and know that victory can only come through calvary. Now, as for scripture, Romans 5:1 states that we are justified by faith in JESUS. I maintain, that we are to keep our faith anchored in the finished work of christ at all times for the rest of our christian experience and that it is easy, if one does’nt have a proper understanding of calvary, meaning that what JESUS did was a legal work, which gives the HOLY SPIRIT the lattitude to help us, then its easy for that faith to all of the sudden begin to take a subtle shift into our works, i.e., bible reading, church attendance, and so on. I know that this is true because it happened to me and I really did’nt realize that I was doing it, but the results are failure. Also, Galations 2:20, & 21, states that we are crucified with Christ and if righteousness comes by the law (our works), then Christ died in vain. The central theme of the whole bible is JESUS Christ and him crucified, and that is the message of the cross. The results of that preaching has led me into a life of victory over bondages that hurt my christian walk tremendously and if they were’nt stopped would have wrecked my entire family and the whole time that i was going through those things, i was fighting and loosing and really depending upon my own will power to get the victory but it always ended into defeat, until I looked at Calvary and the Lord helped me to see that Jesus defeated sin, Romans 6:14, Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law, but grace, then I found the victory and begin to experience the abundant life that Christ died so that we may have. Anyway, as I stated before, sites like this I believe our very displeasing to the Lord, there is really a bias in much of what I have read and things are taken out of context, so I dont really get it. It also, does’nt come off as very christian either, why would I site go through other peoples account of particular situations, unless a person was actually there, none of that can really be substantiated.

        • John says

          I lived in Baton rouge several years, attended the family worship center, paid tithes there and regularly gave to their sharathon, I have read the expositors study bible almost cover to cover with the exception of a few books, I have known many people that work for the Swaggarts and still know many people at their church.

          The basic premise of Grace and not merit is absolutely correct, however I believe the bible will bear out that victory comes in submission and presenting yourself to christ. Romans 6:12-14 and Romans 12:1. Thank you for your response, I rejoice that you have been strengthened in your christian walk.

  9. AW says

    John, for some reason my last reply did not post. Nevertheless, I am not sure where exactly alot of what you are saying is coming from. As one that not only follows the ministry of JSM and am also a member of the church, I can say for 100% certain that much of what you have brought out is taken out of context. Also, the key chapters that regard the christian keeping there faith anchored in the cross our Romans 6, 7, & 8. Lastly, the only person that JSM is lifting up is “Jesus Christ and him Crucified” and I would ask the question what is wrong with that. The gospel is what the world news, I need, you need, and everyone else. Jesus paid the price of our sins, all things that come to the believer come through that finished work. As a believer we have needs, spiritual, physical, domestical, material, and so on. The cross of Calvary has made it possible for God to meet all those needs. One more thing, this site is not very Christian at all. Why in the world would a site post the types of things that really unless somewhere were there, there is no way to substantiate. Now, if it actually biblically pointed out error, line by line verse by verse, that would be different. The fact is that it does’nt, everything has been taking out of context and thats not right. As I listen to the teaching, preaching, and worship from JSM, I can sense the annointing, the presence of God, and that is a wonderful thing. Also, the result for me has been bringing my family back together, deliverance from bondages of darkness, physical healing, and I can go on. Give them a chance, listen to them for a month with an open heart and allow the Lord to speak to you. God Bless.

    • John says

      I would actually be glad to go line by line following Jimmy Swaggart’s own Romans 6 study guide but I don’t think you would absorb or critically review the facts I presented you. At this time you seem bent on defending the Swaggart’s in every area and Romans 6,7,8 don’t outline how “one exclusively places their faith in the cross” and it does not outline how a believer takes his faith in and out of the cross. Romans 6 actually outlines that we were sanctified on the cross Romans 6:6 and the 17th chapter of John as well as the newness of life that we receive by walking in resurrection power. This is all redemptive provision and them Paul outlines in Romans 6:11-22 outline how this provision is to be made an experiential reality in the life of the believer. Non of the instructions are put your faith in the cross. They are 1. Reckon 2. Let not 3. Yeild. However I have already put this several times and if you can’t follow that then greater detail would probably be pointless.

      I have given the Swaggart’s far more than a month my friend and without revealing to much information I can Garanuntee you that my exposure to that ministry has been greater than yours. And in fact the print shop scandal is a fact, I know several employees there that have verified that it was and in fact it was taken to the Top and the employee trying to stop corruption was rewarded by being fired and evicted from his apartment which the Swaggart’s own.

      You certainly can continue to swallow what they say, I would beg you to at least google the following.. Stanley Frodsham prophecy 1965… It is a shaking and powerful prophecy that lines up completely with Gods word and foretells suducers that will deceive and lead astray.
      Please take the time, it specifically foretells how some gifted called and anointed will start right and then be lead astray by seducing spirits and sadly foretells how many of Gods people will say that they don’t find the new doctrines in Gods word but they must be true because the things previously stated by that minister were true… It is a must read for every believer in this day. Disagree all you want with me AW and that’s fine, I, not trying to argue doctrine or theology but I am warning you. At least give this a read. God bless my brother.

      • AW says

        John, to be honest, I dont personally have the time to go into alot of detail in respect to the teaching of Romans 6, 7, & 8. Its not that I dont want to, its that I simple dont have the time. I am a father to 7 kids, so my life is quite busy. As for the Stanely Frodsham prophecy, I have already read that and interestingly enough, it was also read on Brother Swaggarts program. Lastly, all I know is the radical change that has occurred in my own heart and life and its due to sitting under the teaching at JSM ministries, reading through the study guides, and commentaries. Its been a tremendous blessing to me and what is wrong with that? I can tell you from my own personal experience, I am not looking to JSM or any one else for my spirtual life, I am looking to Jesus and if a ministry is pointing people to JESUS and JESUS alone, that is a great and wonderful thing.

        • John says

          Yes I am aware that Jimmy has read that and from my point of view it is quite ironic. Jimmy also has it in his 1 John commentary however neither place have I ever seen jimmy read it in its entirety, nothing wrong with that but the entire thing is worth reading.
          Of course there is nothing wrong with looking to Jesus and whatever has been done in your heart is wonderful, but I would not make the mistake of drinking down all that’s coming from that ministry no matter what you have “experienced” in the past. The question is does it line up currently? I’m afraid it does not in so many ways, the preach a lot of truth and that’s what gets people.

          I’m glad you are pursuing Christ and if you continue and are truly open to the truth concerning JSM you very well may change your mind. God bless you

    • Fidelidad says

      Dear AW,

      I am very happy, joyful, and pleased that you are finding victory and blessing through the God’s Grace, the Word of God, and JSM. Originally I wanted to share with you my reasons why I think you should be cautious about getting too involved with the JSM. However, after thought and prayer, I agree with you that if a person is only receiving blessing and victory, generally they are not going to believe negative stories, or, if they believe them, they will not give them much weight in their evaluation.

      So, instead, I just want to say that websites like this one do offer a much needed balm to people who have been, or feel, exploited and harmed by a ministry such as JSM. I am not going to go so far as to say that God is pleased with this website, because I do not believe God called me to publish such a site and I cannot speak for the owner. However, God does not hide the failures of even his chosen vessels, which you know from the Bible. God did not hide the failures of Abraham, Moses, David, Simon Peter, John and James, Matthew, Mark, and the Apostle Paul, among others, and some of those failures were very great and scandalous. But they are in writing for all eternity, and surely God is pleased with His Word, which does not lie.

      I can say with certainty that JSM has exploited and hurt many people, and when questioned about their actions, they will try to make the injured party believe they are crazy – somewhat like a rapist blaming his victim for the assault. I know this from my own personal experience and from observing, sometimes at a close distance, sometimes further away, mahy other examples and situations. And there were websites such as these that helped me deal with my own pain and confusion. One website in particular, which no longer exists, had a pastor who contributed many articles about how JSM/s teaching was not quite Biblical. This pastor knew Jimmy and Frances personally and had worked together with them for many years and going way back.

      So unless you particularly want me to tell you those areas where I think you should be cautious, I am just going to forget that. I just want you to know that this website is helping someone somewhere who has been victimized by the JSM. And I do think God is not displeased with that. He may even have ordained it to be, just as He can save and heal and give victory through a ministry like JSM.

      Your Sister in Christ
      Fidelidad (means Faithfulness in Spanish)

      P.S. I responded to this post, because the one where you answered me starts out “Fidelidad says,” and it should say “AW says,” and I wanted to make sure you got the notification of my answer.

      • Pansy Brown says

        They have a way of making people think that he or she is stupid for asking a question.They should change the Frances show to the Donnie show.He does all the talking for others on the panel because he rudely butts in when they attempt to answer a question that was not addressed to him.

  10. Fidelidad says

    Dear AW, I have been following your remarks on this forum, and the back and forth with John. Could you clarify a couple of things for me? 1) Do you live in Baton Rouge and attend the physical FWC? Or are you a “Media Church” member? 2) Are you (comparatively) recently involved with JSM or are you aware of the history of this ministry, which goes back to the 60’s, 70’s and which really hit “the big time” in the 80’s? I am concerned that you are so eager to defend the JSM and never seem to see any negativity about them. If you are a Media Church member and have become involved with them in the last 10 years, or even 5, that would explain a lot to me, and I would like to discuss certain things with you.

    • Fidelidad says

      Hi Fidelidad, yes I am a media church member and I have been for quite some time. Also, I am aware of the history of the ministry. I am open to discuss anything that you would like.

    • Fidelidad says

      Fidelidad, I am a media church member but have followed JSM ministries since I was a kid. That is actually how I found Christ, through JSM ministries. As for me being so eager to defend JSM, I maybe shoud not even get involved in this type of stuff, because everything I have thus far read, most defintely puts a twist on what is being taught at JSM, and I know this because I ardently follow, pray for, and support the ministry. So when things are said, they are generally said out of context and the attitude that many protray Jimmy Swaggart as having is not there at all. Secondly, there are negative things about every human being on the planet, excluding none. So as for what has happened there, I know that no human on earth would want their sins plastered over television for the entire world to see and to be made fun of, mocked, and joked about, that is one more awful thing to happen to anyone and I have enough discernment about me to know that Jimmy Swaggart is 100% saved and forgiven and points people to the right place to get the help they need, which is the cross of Calvary. Also, I just finished up having Easter Camp meeting with them, and I dont have the words to even begin to explain, the presence of the Lord that I felt, the word of God that was preached under the annointing of the Holy Spirit, and it just was an all around wonderful experience. So, praise God, I am saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Ghost and I know from experience that what JSM is preaching is the truth and nobody can tell me differently. Just as when Jesus healed the blindman, can you imagine people saying oh you not healed. Its riduculous to say the least.

      • John says

        I’m a little confused, is Fidilidad having a conversation with himself or is the system messing up somehow and putting his name under AW’s responses?

        • Fidelidad says

          Fidelidad is not having a conversation with herself (although I have done that, just not on this forum, hahahaha). AW response to me somehow were sent with the beginning “Fidelidad says . . . .” That’s why I responded to an earlier post from AW rather than his last, because I thought if I responded to this last one, the system would send the notification to me instead of to AW. Thanks for noticing.

  11. John says

    Ok, that’s what I thought.
    Unfortunately AW is not open to hearing the truth as it concerns JSM. He claims I’m out of context yet he can explain how, simply says JSM preaches the truth and he has great experiences at their camp meetings. Very sad because JSM is not preaching the truth and I’m not twisting it, it’s quite plain for those who care to know.

    • Mishel says

      John, you did an excellent job trying to refute his belief in JSM. I say “belief in JSM” because it is not a belief in the God of Abraham Isaac Jacob or in the biblical Jesus. It is faith in an organization and a corrupt one at that. Having worked for them I can attest to their corruption and they have been steadily straying further and further from the truth while their supporters blindly follow.

      I liken it to a pilot whose equipment is just slightly off. If the pilot is just making a trip of 100 miles it will not be noticed much. However if the pilot is going thousands of miles his only slightly faulty equipment will cause him to be hundreds of miles off. JSM started off close to the truth but as time progresses they are further and further away.

      However, even if we discard their faulty doctrine ( while no bible believing Christian could) the fact that this is a PROVABLY corrupt organization should be all the “proof” one should need. Even though I had SOLID IRREFUATABLE evidence of the smut they were printing in their print shop people continued to call me a liar. In my experience, those within JSM do not want to listen or hear the truth. They believe what they want to believe and that is that. They think because they felt a tingle or were blessed in some way that this is evidence of God’s approval of this ministry and nothing could be further than the truth. Deceived people do not know they are deceived.

      • AW says

        Mishel, its simply amazing to me how that you could come to the conclusion that you have about me, someone that you do not even now. For the record, I was saved at 13 years old and also Baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. That came about because of the preaching of Jimmy Swaggart. Now I admit, as a young man, my faith did stray from where it should be, Jesus Christ and him alone, to the man Jimmy Swaggart. That was definetly wrong and I found out that my faith should never be in any man on this earth, denomination, or anything else, but only in Jesus Christ and him alone and for that matter and more specifically, Jesus Christ and him crucified. It was he that died for me and he alone. Lastly, I would like to point out that the statement that you made in reference to me is 100% wrong, that should something to you hopefully. I am certain that this site is not at all pleasing to the Lord and it really sounds like that you have not forgiven those that hurt you because you seem to be holding on to this, when the right thing to do, is to forgive and move on. Hopefully you will post this. AW

        • John Galyon says

          ” For the record, I was saved at 13 years old and also Baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. That came about because of the preaching of Jimmy Swaggart”

          For the record…if you were save and baptized in the Holy Spirit, it was because of the grace of God…not the preaching of Jimmy Swaggart.

          • says

            Pray for Jimmy Swaggart. Even though the swaggarts are 501c3 tax exempt they still preach against abortion and homosexuality. The issues of today which are bringing judgement of God on America and the world.
            Martin Luther said and I parapharse: Though speak with the loudest voice and the greatest exposition of the truth of the WORD OF GOD and fail to address those small points that at the moment the devil is raging. I am not confessing Christ(agreeing with) even though I am professing Christianity.
            You can say all sorts of things against the swaggarts, BUT they are addressing the above mentioned TWO seperating issues . We can NOT legislate morality.

          • James says

            Hatred of social ills is not what unites believers. Christ does. If the truth of God’s gospel is added to, or detracted from, then another gospel is proclaimed because another Jesus is presented. If anyone takes your persona and aquires a credit card, calling themselves after your name, and goes around town racking up debt and worse still, tells anyone who’ll listen lies about your past, what you believe and your sexual orientation. Let’s say during this telling of “another you, another story (gospel)” some people who know you here this fraud being told. Do you expect them to say, “well at least this person speaks against abortion and homosexuality!” No you would expect your friends to tell you (prayer) and speak openly against this person (proclaiming the gospel) revealing their nefarius errors. In Jude this is “earnestly contending for the faith.” I will point out that all, and I mean all, christian cults preach against homosexuality and abortion. Does this mean we believe we can be gods, as the mormons teach. Or perhaps Jesus is a mere angel as the Jehovah’s Witnesses proclaim! Or perhaps our spritual ills can be addressed by supplicating a myriad of saints as the Whore of Rome demands! Tysk tysk. This acceptance of those preaching any ole’ Jesus, while ignoring errors which damn is a de Loyola fave, proclaimed vehemently by his loyal minions and those spiritually dull enough to have drunk from the cup of Rome’s fornication. If you are saved who read this, FEAR GOD!

          • John Galyon says

            Too bad they don’t preach on their own lavish lifestyles, paid for $10 at a time from those who sacrificially give to their ministry. Too bad that they don’t preach about how wrong it is to mistreat people who work for them. Too bad that they don’t preach against their own shady business dealings. Too bad that they don’t preach against their own spiritual arrogance and ignorance. Too bad that they don’t preach about how that throughout the Christian church…Jimmy Swaggart has the worst reputation of any minister preaching from a pulpit today.

          • James says

            Amen. I don’t know for sure of all of what you’ve said however all of this crime against God is the result of their erroneous faith. Out of the abundance of their heart, so do they preach. What believers must judge, through The Word, are their words. Personal attacks are pointless because the accuser of the brethren (Satan) stands before God as we speak. Are we pure? Mmmmmm. Let’s just ensure our lives are under the blood of Christ, and attack error with the truth. That is, God’s word.

    • AW says

      John, I left Mishel a comment so hopefully it will post. Nevertheless, she came to a conclusion about me without even knowing me personally, its really a shame. For the record, my faith is not in JSM or any man made organization, but in Jesus Christ and him crucified. That is it, just that simple. Also, when I made the comment about you taking things out of context, its just the fact that I dont just attend Sunday morning service once in awhile, but I also do the night service, listen to Wed. night service and follow along with the teaching series. So, I know exactly what they believe and Jimmy Swaggart does’nt exhibit the kind of attitudes that are attributed to him, he has never one time said he was the “only one” or even promoted himself in that respect in the least kind of way, but on the contrary has been very humble and continues to teach that believers should look to the cross, the finished work of Christ as the answer to the sin nature. It is just as Paul said in Galations 2:20, that we are crucified with Christ and its easy for a believer to get their eyes onto their own works and not keeping their eyes upon Jesus. I did it myself, but when I began to as the apostle said in Romans Chapter 6 to reckon myself dead to sin “the sin nature” each and every day that my faith begin to get back to its proper foundation. AW

      • John says

        Ok AW
        As a fellow believer I truly wish you the best and I certainly could not determine your relationship with The Lord. But it’s obvious you hear the true things presented and have yet to identify the false. This week I heard with my own ears… I am not taking it out of context… If you listen to the morning show you heard it too… Jim Woolsey said if you are failing and stumbling in sin as long as your faith is in the cross then you are walking in the spirit. Jimmy Swaggart said yes yes I agree… Damnable, when you fail and you are sinning you are NOT WALKING IN THE SPIRIT, if you are repentant will Christ forgive you? Yes of course but to claim we can be in sin and in the spirit at the same time is a gross perversion of the scripture.

        • AW says

          John, I am sorry my friend, but you are really not hearing what is being said. I did not listen to the particular message that you are referencing but I can tell you 100% what they are referring to and that is that as a christian, we are 100% Justified by faith in Christ and that justication does not change when we sin. Ofcourse repentance is a must for any christian and if one is truly saved and they sin, the Holy Spirit is going to convict their heart and lead them to repentance. I will use myself as an example, when I sin, I take it to the Lord and according to 1 John 1:9, if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Thank the Lord. I will continue on with myself as an example in that I struggled with a particular sin for years, not getting victory over the sin, confessing each time and asking the Lord to forgive me and he was always faithful to do so. During those times of where I failed God, I did’nt loose my justification, that position can not change, unless of course I denied the Lord and just walked away. So, during those times and especially when I began to listen to the teaching on the message of the Cross, there was a long period of discovery and seeing that my faith for victory and overcoming sin was really in my self and I have no power to overcome, but gradually the Holy Spirit helped me to anchor my trust and my confidence in the finished work Christ and understand that everything I recieve from God comes via “through calvary” and little by little I began to walk after the Spirit and there was definetley failures along the way, but Praise be to God, that sin does’nt have dominion over me anymore and its the most wonderful thing ever. And it all came through me getting a proper knowledge of what Jesus did, that it was a legal work and that there is nothing that I can add to that work. Its just simply Jesus and him Crucified. Now that is the same Gospel that the apostle Paul preached and its the same Gospel that Jimmy Swaggart Preaches.

      • T.Heim says

        Dear AW,
        I’m curious whether or not you continue to attend FWC and stand by your statements about the ministry that were made about 15 months ago. I would love to hear from you.

  12. Scott T says

    I started listening to SBN radio a few months ago and was impressed with their focus on the cross. However, last week one of their pastors started referring to the “divine nature” in us and the red flags went up instantly. They did not linger on this so it’s possible he just misspoke, but any Christian and especially a pastor/theologian should know the heretical implications of this statement. The Three Persons of the Trinity are divine and we are human and only Christ has both a divine nature and a human nature – fully God, fully human. To imply that there is a divine nature in us is to deny we are created beings and all the false teachings that go along with that ideology.

    • Rene says

      AW…..THANKS for standing up for the Swaggarts……
      did you notice at the END of that long dissertation he stated that HE checked with HIS spirit. But this sad person needs a dose of the HOLY SPIRIT. IF this “john” spent as much time reading the Bible instead to trying to TELL OTHER that JSM is oh so bad….this person night have a chance of being saved. ALL of this guys babble is sickening. I have not heard one word that Jesus would approve of yet??? It is so sad when people are so covetous of others. No matter who the OTHERS are. The sad ones rail and rail against the HORROR these people are doing!! ALL I KNOW is THIS…when I watch I get chills and tears….I FEEL the Holy Spirit in the broadcasts. GLORY TO GOD for that…………I have missed hearing the WORD OF GOD and feeling HIM TOO………that’s awesome!!
      One person in this “potty blog” was talking about Frances…..I used to build CUSTOM homes in the PGA Florida!! Nice homes…..anyway I ran 55 carpenters and 20 in my form/foundations crew and some 36 labors and then my subs…..I bet if you spoke to any of my men they would tell you I WAS TUFF but fair. This guy that is babbling on has never RUN a business. Nor has the woman earlier in the blog….but I guess because the Swaggarts are famous they can’t SUE people like this that run their mouths and YET have backed up nothing. The one guy worked for them for THREE YEARS wow it was SOOOOOO bad for him…..huh!! If the poor guy was that fearful he should have LEFT but I guess the MONEY was still green…or was it because Francis was a strong WOMAN that made him fearful…anyway these people I hope God will forgive them…..but like the Bible says EVEN SATAN CAN QUOTE SCRIPTURE!!!!
      But it’s nice to see REAL people who love the word of God and FIND IT at SBN…can I get and amen?? These ??saints?? in the blog that bad mouth and condemn in the Name of religion would have thrown that first stone that day Jesus said….WHO will cast the FIRST STONE at the woman caught in the act…..because ALL of them here are SO….. FREE of SIN???
      Get on your knees JOHN…………who asked you to be judge and jury BECAUSE YOU THINK or BECAUSE YOU FEEL……..you “john” have your nerve…..but the LORD will fix that for yea and take the pain away from your worldly desires and this harm you wish to do to others….you poor sad thing!
      But thank GOD for SBN. ShareAthon starts tomorrow I have my offering ready…

      • T.Heim says

        Rene, you are one DELUSIONAL woman! JSM followers are no different than people who followed Jim Jones! It’s extremely cult-like behavior! You are clearly crazier about JSM than the Lord Jesus Christ. A true Christ-follower ought to be able to worship, grow,and be ministered to from ANY pastor who preached the word of God. And,a passionate disciple of Christ is more eager to go out and serve, rather than be served! JSM constantly encourages church, church and more church. I never hear anyone encourages to serve, serve, serve. So, that’s great, you’re ready with your donation at the next fundraiser. Why? So JSM stays on the air so you can be “fed?” What a waste of money! Do you have ANY idea how the money is spent? How much for salaries, etc? No, you don’t, because Swaggart makes it known that there is no board of directors or anyone to whom they are accountable! So, Biblically speaking, that is poor stewardship! All of you JSM followers come across as fanatics! I urge you to take an honest look at yourselves, and ask WHY? Why is it so important for you to blindly, unequivocally support and defend THEM? Are you that unsure of your own abilities to think for yourselves, to understand scripture, or to have your own relationship with God?

        • EM says

          I was just thinking after reading Rene’s comment, “now that’s the fruit of the spirit” lol. Please note, no scripture to support her views. Does this not scream the church of the Laodiceans? The church that exalts men’s teaching over the Word Of God. Jesus had nothing good to say about them except they needed to repent and buy eye salve from HIM to SEE.. Let Rene spend all her money on this ministry if she likes. Maybe she can pay for more face lifts, maybe another diamond ring for Francis. ( she wears 4 and has a hard time holding her hand up now) gold weight you know. Oh, and all the goose bumps she gets from the ministry, She will be prime for the False Signs and wonders movement. Jesus said Matt 12:39 and Luke 11:29 the evil generation seeks a sign. Thanks for your posts, I’ve enjoyed them.

          • James says

            Hey T. Seems like you have an admirer. Don’t think my posts would tickle EM’s fancy though. Do you?

          • T. Heim says

            Not sure about that James! :>)

            I don’t know if any of you are viewing much of SBN, but it’s been interesting to watch their “fund-raising” activities. It never fails that Donnie preaches the Sunday between the shar-a-thon, and it’s HEAVY on guilt about not giving enough, and how “indispensable” the Swaggart’s are to the gospel! I’ve wondered how long it would be before they “topped-out” and exhausted the resources of their very small viewership, and it looks like this is exactly the trend. They have fallen short of their stated goal by $300K-800K month after month. They’ve slowed the incremental monthly increases, but continue to increase the goal amt.

            I think the larger and more damaging corruption lies within the finances of this ministry! I am highly suspicious of their claims concerning the number of ES Bibles actually donated, the true “costs”, and who oversees the process in the target country, etc. I highly doubt funds are kept “separate” or “exclusive ” (only for TV time, or Bibles), and who would know, as no financial reports are ever given to the donors and the Swaggart’s are the only corporate officers! I’m afraid I will never understand the gullibility, lack of wisdom and discernment, and carelessness of some people when it comes to giving money. They will watch Donnie parading around in his very expensive wardrobe and accessories, living in “free, tax-free housing” that is far more luxurious than any of his donors, pull out and hold high a check he claims is for $1000 that they are “GIVING”(LOL) to THEMSELVES, and these poor elderly (their largest demographic) folks are writing checks from their social security and/or disability or retirement accounts. So Donnie and Gabriel peddle their brand to church folks and travel around the world!

            I sense a sense of desperation as they try to peddle more of Jimmy’s “works.” Their “teachings” are getting more rigid, radical and ridiculous (to imitate Swaggart’s silly “acrostics”). And the “panel” on Francis&Friends gets more ignorant and outrageous every day (if you haven’t belly-laughed in a really long time, it’s the show for you!)

            Have any of you seen an Expositor’s Study Bible? It is completely UNREADABLE). Not only is this work a hermeneutics nightmare, it is a literary disaster! The grammar, punctuation, capitalization, word usage, sentence structure is so poor, one would classify it as the work of a child! Why anyone would give 2 cents to provide this work to ANYONE is beyond my comprehension! I believe there is HUGE scandal here….just waiting for a hungry reporter!! The sooner the Swaggarts are off the air, the better.

          • James says

            I remember way back when, when I was a part of the flock of folly, that I gave to a something-or-other and I stated to the somewhat senior staffer on the phone that if the amount sought was reached then feel free to use it for other requirements. He sniggered and said mockingly, “oh don’t worry! We will!” Nough said. I am glad you saw the tongue in cheek way I made my comment. Seems EM didn’t. A shame really as I would have enjoyed conversing, with you as well, on whatever topic popped up. Perhaps at some future time this desire could see fulfilment. You asked a few weeks back about my year thus far. It was stagnant to that point however has since seen an upturn. God is good. Until next time……..

          • T. Heim says

            Glad to hear it, James!

            It makes me angry to see anyone exploited in the name of Christianity! The Swaggart’s aren’t just ignorant….they’re evil.

          • EM says

            It’s Not about tickling anyone’s fancy James. It’s about truth and scripture. It’s about not making an idol of preachers. It’s about discernment. It’s about “The Lord is “My”shepherd “. It’s about not fleecing the flock. I haven’t bothered to read your posts James.

          • James says

            Nicely stated EM. Really not following the logic however. As for not reading my posts? Again, not following the logic. Read, don’t read my statement wasn’t aimed at you. Thanks for the thought mind you. As you said, it’s about the scripture. Now, we’re waiting ……….

          • EM says

            T Heim. I know exactly what you are saying and it’s correct. If they have millions of viewers across the world, why is it that they only get about 35,000 from outside the US.. I pray each month that they don’t get their fleecing amount during their beg-a-thons. Praise God , my prayers are answered. During one of their shows, someone ask a question and they answered with that expositors bible. The problem, they blurred out the black letters, you know the actual Word of God, and just showed the red letters Jimmy’s thoughts. I was shocked. Last night was a rerun of last weeks Francis and Friends. Someone ask about people living in sin and on a church worship team. A pastor later called in and disagreed with Donnie on the answer. Donnie of course went off the rails and eventually told him he needed to step down as he wasn’t qualified as a pastor. Donnie said, anyone with sin issues needs to get out of the pulpit. Then Jim quoted the scripture on qualifications of Bishops/Pastors. I thought what hypocrites! Might still get the show on. Normally when Donnie goes off they cut things. I guess they don’t realize people have dvr’s. I had a person run in with Donnie over scripture, I was shocked how little he knew. Amazing.

          • Billy says

            There was a time some years back when I was contemplating purchasing one of these bibles. I saw a promotion for it and was shocked that the words of Christ were in black, and Jimbo’s in red!!! Huh!! I’ve been around a few decades and have owned all the major study bibles from the who’s who for the last century or more and some were really cocky in their writings. None however ever came close to the Christ-person Jimmy-Lee Swaggart!! None of these expositors ever dared to surplant the “words of Christ in red” study bible standard. He is by doing this claiming to get direct revelation from God. I can see no other explanation. Fearful!!

          • T. Heim says

            They are beyond stupid…..I’m practically rolling on the floor when Donnie starts ranting about somebody’s ignorant statement by giving his dad’s definition of ignorance as a person who doesn’t know what he’s ignorant about!! This is all while he presents himself to be an “expert” in just about everything!

          • EM says

            Well James, I guess I was wrong if your post wasn’t directed at me. Since it was on my reply and you mentioned my name, one would think it could have some direct connection to what I said. Lol

          • James says

            Currently this thread is umteen comments long. As it goes the link is attached to your comment which happens to be with comments made years past. For the continuity to continue so others in time future can understand that continuity my, and anyone’s, comment must be attached. As for mentioning you well if you are discussing a comment made by a third party, then is the comment directed to that third party? Sure they’re mentioned, but directly spoken to? No. Of course not. Well in this format there is no expectation of privacy so you, as anyone, are privy to all comments. I believe you know this so will now accuse you of being disengenuous. It’s not a harsh statement. If you had followed a logicians form, you would have recognized the tongue-in-cheek comment made to T.Heim. We have a little rocky history do T.Heim and I so I was being a little playfully cheeky with her. She wasn’t offended. Yet you were. My comment was innocuous. Any reasonable person would have recognized this. Alas. I recognize that I sowed angst with T. Heim and her friend John, and now I am reaping EM. This, I suppose, is my lot. I sincerely hope I showed a little more logic than you EM.

  13. AW says

    One more thing, I am really grieved by this site. Asking myself the question of why I even visited. I hope Mishel heres what I am about to say and that is, this website is not of the Lord and its breeding something very sinster and probably and most likely has hindered and hurt a few not so mature Christians. What is the purpose? Even many of the remarks and comments made our with such arrogance and pride. John, I would like for you to answer this question? Do you think the Lord would be pleased with this site and whats going on. No matter what, whatever transpired between Mishel and JSM, is between them and I was’nt there and its really such a shame to accuse someone and they not have a chance to defend themselves or all of the people that visit this site get a one-sided story, well there is another side to the story, should’nt that be heard. Again, I will visit back to check on your response John, and after that we will close it out because this is not profitable. Oh by the way, and I know there is no way for you or anyone to verify what I am about to say, but I have recieved so many blessings from JSM and there materia, I have recieved physical healing in my body, and when the recession hit and I lost my job, I was only laid off for a day before I was hired at another company, same salary and benefits and recieved a months severance pay, now thats the Lord and the interesting thing about it is that I tithe to JSM, so just prior to that, I had a little bit of money saved up and the Lord basically spoke to my heart to give to the ministry and I did and the Lord has kept me employed ever since making even more money than I did back then. “the proof is in the pudding”

  14. John says

    Being justified does not mean that when we sin we are “still in the spirit” that is error. When we sin we have yielded to the flesh. To make people think that when they are sinning they are still in the spirit as long ” as their faith ever stays anchored in the cross” is a damning teaching that will cause people to wink at sin, stay in sin and not seek to live a righteous life

    • AW says

      John, perhaps you just misunderstood the statement, I have been following and sitting under that ministry for over 12 years and have never thought one time that I can sin and be in the spirit.

    • Rene says

      ARE YOU NUTS???? You know john…..you just might need a long vacation…..it sounds like the strain of being SO HOLY is getting to you …..your halos to tight maybe ??!!!

      WOW…… you people on this potty blog WILL ANSWER TO GOD one day. OR in your crazed desire to WRITE these worthless nasty accusing defamatory words…. forget that your mind and your tongue WILL be judged by GOD?? I don’t know if you are a sheep or a goat…..but IF I WERE YOU…..I would take a nice LONG break and stop this…..stop being jealous of the WORD of GOD…..you can be CHANGED by it too……Jesus loves all sinners!! Seek HIM john….because you really are skating on some very thin ice here with your words…..
      You might want to ATTACK some true APOSTATE preachers on TV. The LIST is long and getting longer…..now see…..you can say these things and SOME things spoken will be RIGHT AS RAIN!!!! And you will need no proof either there…..the TRUTH is in the WORD and when that TRUTH is right you see the FRUITS of the word…..come and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is LORD….repent and Jesus will wash you in HIS blood and make you clean and then the Holy Spirit will come into your heart and soul and GUIDE you in a NEW walk with Jesus john… WOW…………… I just feel so SORRY for you and maybe YOUR SPIRIT is lost…..you keep talking about YOUR SPIRIT……….you need to EXAMINE yourself john….I do not THINK you truly have the GIFT of discernment…..have you even been Baptized with the HOLY SPIRIT with HIS dunamas POWER?? Something isn’t right with you….I’ll ask the LORD to give me a word of knowledge about you….because I really feel you need some serious help. The more I site here and write the more the Holy Spirit makes me feel sad for you!! maranatha maranatha

      YOU KNOW in court you need P R O O F ….BUT in blogs all you have to do is SMEAR and lie. HERE john and that girl mishel that posted here NEED a big bunch of TOILET PAPER to wipe themselves off.
      Because it it getting DEEP in here. Like AW said why am I HERE………….LORD HELP ME I have fallen into a PIT and please FORGIVE ME for trying to stop stupidity from running rampant here!!
      Come Holy Spirit I need thee…. Come Holy Spirit I pray…..Come Holy Spirit in thy strength and thy power…oh LORD……Come Holy Spirit I pray!!! Love it when he sings that on the crusades!

      I feel dirty now…..I need my Holy Spirits touch… SOOOOOOOO john I will leave you to your slander and sad illl will and I’ll go to SBN and breath some clean HOLY SPIRIT air and hear some good music to boot!! GLORY TO GOD…………thank you MY LORD JESUS for what YOU did for a wretch like me on the CROSS…………………maranatha maranatha !!!

      • T.Heim says

        Rene, you must be deaf or oblivious to the constant criticism by JSM of other ministries, and constant elevation of themselves and their ministry! One can’t help but hear it every hour, every program, every speaker! Perhaps it’s their excellect music and musicians that distract or drown out the bragging, but at least their music is worth bragging about. However, they are just one of many ministries with excellent musicians and music, yet they haven’t once ever stated so…..they only say they have the best music in the world, etc. “He who humbles himself will be exalted.” I believe that’s the way the scripture reads.

      • John Galyon says

        I’m concerned that if you keep abusing that “caps” button you’re going to need surgery on that left, little finger…

        • James says

          Wow. It has been too long since this fun blog has had a heart beat! As for Myshel being saved a simple reading of her testimony gives an accurate account I think. Secondly, the “there are no perfect people” syndrome shows the writer of such giddy lunacy, who ever that may be, has no clue of the biblical gospel. Why did Jesus come again? Oh that’s right, to “save that which was lost!” Once you’re saved, is there no further use of Christ’s redemptive work? Mmmmm. Is the believer sinless on his own recognisance? I have no interest in that historical fact anymore. The problem those who speak forthrightly about Mr. Swaggart subsequent to his 1988 repentance is about his doctrine. God’s word is rated above God’s name (Ps. 138:2). As for Jimmy Swaggart’s word, well he ain’t God! His word must be judged in the light of God’s word. I appologise not for this.

  15. John says

    You have not received healing through the material of JSM, and your financial well being is not connected to JSM the very fact that you think such is quite sad. Evidently you view Jimmy as your mediator, you get healing thru JSM, you get a good job because you give to JSM. I feel that The Lord is not happy with the bondage that JSM is placing people in, and as far as this site I can not speak for every article because I have not read every article but the bible tells us not to have fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness but instead to reprove them. JSM speaks like in hypocrisy about others, so I am glad that their true colors are being exposed to those that will hear.
    Can I say that Mishel has %100 pure motive and no bitterness from her JSM experience? No I really can’t because only God knows the heart of a person, I can only say that from what I have picked up she seems to be quite disturbed from the happenings of JSM and she should be. I have not picked up a bitter or vengeful spirit about her but when truth is told about personalities that people have made idols out of it hurts. I can truly say at one time I was an avid supporter of JSM, I thought they were truly presenting the “old paths” the true Gospel. However after many checks in my spirit and a intense examination of their teaching and of scripture I have to say with 100% certainty that they are not.
    I don’t have a bone to pick with them personally but the damage they are doing and the damage they will do is enormous and grieving. They are truly wolves in sheeps clothing. I pray they repent because God will judge what is taking place if they do not turn. Judgment came in the 80s as that ministry lifted itself up as the beacon of truth and downed all others as not quite living up to the standard of Jimmy. This pious hypocrisy was judged and without repentance that is the only end to what is currently happening today. The new Jimmy is a whole lot like the old Jimmy.

    AW we will have to agree to disagree, however you are being fleeced but “great swelling words of vanity” John said those that do righteous are righteous. They may speak some truth but sadly the truth is not in them and error can’t stand.

    • AW says

      John, wake up man!! I am done here. I have been tremendously blessed throught the “preaching and teaching” at Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, never once have I held him or anyone else up as my means of blessing and healing, but the facts our, I was healed watching the telecast, I’ve learned to tithe watching the telecast, my eyes are on Jesus Christ and him alone. Not this site, you or anyone else can change that. Jesus is my Lord and saviour. You just dont want to believe, thats all. You can respond if you like, but I want be back. This site is not of the Lord, its actually evil.

  16. David says

    AW and John, you guys are my brothers, but the back and forth is not edifying. AW, you have a sweet spirit. May God continue blessing you. Always remembering that Christ is the final authority, not a ministry, a feeling or a man. John, I see your passion in revealing truth but what is the true motive behind it? Just to prove a point to win an argument? After reading all the information posted by Mishel, I am on the fence with JSM now. I must say, I was truly enjoying the Frances and Friends TV program before coming across to this site. Quite a let down for me. Will change the channel. Let’s pray for their ministry.

    • Rene says

      DAVID…. here (this site) is what needs to be turned Off…..do you feel the Holy Spirit here??? NO and NO and ten thousand times no. But SBN….I FEEL IT……..don’t let some people who know zero and have even less NO PROOF and can’t even back up ONE stinking statement do your thinking for you !!??
      MOVE from SBN if your SOUL is not being fed…..because one of the FEW places the TRUE WORD of GOD is preached and taught and sung is SBN !! Don’t allow this petty and sad back biting rhetoric move your soul ONE INCH. Blogs like this are less than a dime a dozen….it’s so easy to SAY what ever and call it THEIR TRUTH…………it doesn’t matter anymore IF THE TRUTH is even close to the being true…..but here…..they all need some soap!!
      You discern David….is there fruit and is the WORD of GOD spoken…..if YES then enjoy SBN and just chalk THIS PLACE up to a bad dinner that had to find a toilet quickly and get flushed….down goes the yuck and the stink !!
      Blessings and let your light shine the LORD needs HIS saints for the up coming harvest…..HE’S coming back soon!! Glory glory Praise God

      • John says

        Thank you for your response and concern for my Soul. While I understand that you are angry with me because you obviously are very emotionally invested into the Swaggart ministry. While I have pointed out error in the swaggart teaching I have not slandered their person nor wil I. God is the Judge and we will all do well to leave that duty to him, he alone determines if a heart is truly born again and walking in the light of Christ.

        Have you spent any significant time at the swaggart ministry in Baton Rouge? If you have not I assure you Television does not tell the whole story. I can honestly say that I pray on a regular basis for those at the ministry, not everyday but on a regular basis. I’m not mad at them, I don’t hate them and I certainly can’t stand in the way on anyone watching them. However that does not mean I have to be in agreement with them.

        They teach things that are right. There teaching that you are saved only by grace is very much correct. Their teaching that only faith can bring about a sanctified life is very much correct. But they are supremely imbalanced to the point that they border heretical in some of their teaching.

        You ask if I have been filled with the spirit, well yes I have and I certainly believe that speaking in tongues is a evidence of a spirit filled life but the proof is in the fruit of your life, are you living a holy life free from sin and walking in the Love and gentleness of Christ. I certainly strive to.

        The fruit from JSM is quite rotten and while I’ll be the first to agree that some people are blesse by the ministry that still does not validate the error. For example a person who has been bound by legalism may turn on the network and hear the message of Grace, this will be like a fresh splash of water on a parched and dry tongue.

        However when they receive this truth and then attribute it to the Swaggart ministry and them digest all of their teaching they have swung from one pendulum of error to the other.
        Like Inhave said over and over on this site, error rides on the back of truth, really good error rides on the back of much truth. I John says that we have a Holy anointing and he also said the Holy Spirit leads to all truth, you don’t need to argue with me and I don’t need to argue with you, pray and read Gods word without the imposition of man thought engrafted into the word( Jimmy Swaggart’s expositors bible) and let The Lord guide your descion to support or not support the Swaggart’s.

  17. Grace Evans says

    i agree with everything that has been said swaggart teaches some truth and lots of false i do not read his bible but only the regular king james bible.

  18. Edwin Rodriguez says


  19. k sisco says

    Aw where is the scriture at “the evidence of speaking in other tounges”? I looked in my Strongs and never found such scripture.Please give me the Book,chapter and verse.
    Mishel keep your faith God always takes care of his own.

  20. david says

    the reason i am here is because ive been watching sonlife and something just didnt sit right, lot is said about francis thats funny to because when i first listened to her i thought wow she is nasty, after she ridiculed a caller, i can see how people can be attracted to this theres no doubt j swaggett is a fine musician nice voice , but if you look long enough even the untrained eye can see all is not what it seems.

    • Norma says

      I absolutely see the mean spirited look that Francis has.It seems like a family reality show to me.They have to make lots of money in order to keep that big family up and they
      Look like they have the best of everything.I will donate y money to children and old peopleAfter all,isn’t that what the church is suppose to do?

        • James says

          Jas 1:26

          If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.
          Jas 1:27

          Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

          In context this is not the worldling. This is those of God’s church. One hundred and fifty years ago certain humanistic societies intentionally moved to supplant the church as supplier of food and shelter to the poor and needy. Each denomination provided for their own congregants. Protestant branches provided for their individual churches, and no one else. This is scriptural however the masses of God haters who refused Christ were preferring drink, opiates and The American Way, not The King’s Highway. Humanist’s saw this as an opportunity to capture social power ( if your food came from a minister, and not some government department, who do you think people would listen to) and began the social security safety net to where it is today where government reigns supreme and churches have nominal interest in the lives of most. This was also the case with education. Churches educating their own, and Protestants gave up their hegemony with their own, except the wealthy, who could afford an exclusive private education. I digress. The process was gradual, and complete. As for the scripture the context is for believers only. The examples of the four and five thousand not including the women and children whom Jesus fed through miracles proves the example. The crowds heard the word first. The preaching went on for three days on each occasion. Imagine staying outdoors away from dvd, pizzas and amenities (no shower and flushing toilets) for three days and all you had for sleeping and eating was what you hand carried to where Jesus was. No one went to hear Jesus with the thought he was going to preach himself to exhaustion over three days. They simply stayed, in the wilderness ( the scripture states this to let us know there were no amenities or provisions) and stayed to hear Jesus preach. Come or go, it’s your choice. Then as now. Jesus provided the bread of life and when people stayed preferring this bread than their own physical needs then their physical needs were met by Jesus. That ties in with James’ teaching perfectly. I could say much more, however for now God bless.

  21. Nate says

    I went to JSBC in the same year as the 1988 scandal. I have seen some of the things stated.
    However, I have only caught a few recent teachings. I really don’t see much difference. I know whom I have believed in and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I commited against that day.People, we have got to keep our eyes on the Lord. He is the author and finisher of our faith. Over the last 30 years I have seen a lot of foolish : ” holy laughter”, rolling on the floor, greed , lust, gold dust,” being drunk in the spirit”, etc. Only the truth will remain. All the other “stuff” will burn in the refiners fire on the day we see Christ face to face. I have long ago stopped looking to ” men of God” and looked only to Him. Be a Godchaser not a man chaser. All have sinned.

  22. Esther says

    There is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. This type of Christianity is why the world will not receive Christ. I will never send another dollar to TV evangelists. I will however send to local churches, and support widows and orphans. The anointing has lifted from this ministry, but it has not lifted from the word of God, so people may still be blessed under their teaching, but God will not be mocked, what they have sown, they will reap.

  23. James Morrow says

    I’m a christian man from Australia. I know no one in this forum, to the best of my knowledge. When saved – April 1994 – I fell pell mell into the deception of the Word/Faith movement. For several years I went along with the mantras and jingoism associated with that heresy and would have stayed there and lost my family/fortune/sanity like so many other souls have over time had it not been for my saviour, Jesus Christ the righteous, leading me to listen to a man by the name of Jimmy Swaggart. I was angered at first by his assertions about Word/Faith heresy however he had a fire and foundation of scripture that I craved since salvation so I continued to listen. Anytime someone told me that Jimmy was a charlatan only emboldened me to listen more to Jimmy, and less to the knockers. Within a couple of years, around the year 2000, I had hundreds of sermons including tapes and LP records , vitually all Jimmy’s teaching series with some on longplay LP from the mid-seventies and all but a handful of the sixty odd LP albums that he had produced. Including the Shiloh label. I was, and still today, not ashamed to declared what a blessing Jimmy Swaggart had been to me. I knew more than anyone of my contempories about Jimmy Swaggart and his ministry and when you consider that I rubbed shoulders with numbers who had hosted Jimmy at their churches and later Donnie Swaggart as well, that says something. JSM Ministries phone number in Australia was dialled often! I kept reading in the word however of God’s ministers behaving a certain way, and I wasn’t seeing this from the Swaggarts. It is amazing what a believer can pick up on video tape. Little things. A thumbs up to someone out of view after they had delivered an interpretation to tongues. Not centre screen and almost unseeable. A rewind button is a useful tool. Stories about meeting Jesus. So fantastical it puts Pauls humble discertation in the “unimportant” category. All the while I was receiving criticism from all those around me. I would often say that Jesus was alone on the cross so I guess are God’s true ministers, but deep down I was disturbed by the claims. When any believer compares the humility of Christ and the words of Jimmy Swaggart they should be dumbfounded. My cleansing of the Swaggart stain off my soul began when I read an article about JSM being sued by the printers of the Dake Anotated Bible. I thought that would be easy to answer as I own a Dake. I whipped it out incensed at this accusation. I thought if there was a problem it was a minor one with not a lot of copying at all. These commentaries are no longer in print and have been totally rewritten. Out came the Dake. Down went my jaw! On almost every single page, and I checked ramdomly through several hundred pages and true enough, Swaggart and copied virtually word for word great swathes of Dake’s material. Those commentaries, at $76.00 a piece, were torn and tossed! I had 11 of which all but 4 were given as a blessing to a sister only weeks before. I was incensed however was not yet fully convinced Jimmy Swaggart was a conman. As the years progressed I continued to listen to their radio over the internet and was blessed however I was formulating my own ideas on doctrine and must say I was never convinced about his doctrinal bent since adopting “The Revelation of the Cross”. I won’t get into it now however the emphasis is that Jimmy Swaggart is the only one to have it – in the world! Really!!!! I can only be saved through Jimmy Swaggart Ministries then! If you’ve listened to him for any length of time, you would have heard the same. The back of the camel was brocken so to say when I heard one of their telethons. Swaggart himself made the claim that it cost $37.00 on average an hour per translator station to go to air. I thought, ” Wow. That’s interesting. So I worked out that each translator, on average cost 24( hours in a day) X $37.00 an hour to run per day. They at that point had over 60 translators so that works out a lot. Per day! Now fimes that by 30 days in a month and 365 days for a year and that’s many times more than the figure they gave. I did my sums and emailed the ministry in the US to alert them of their error. I even said something like, ” an enemy would use this error to hurt the ministry on the internet. Good thing a friend discovered it.” Well I used to watch the morning Sunday service over the net on Monday morning when it was re-run. To my surprise Francis got up and castigated someone on the internet who has spent more time worrying about ministry finances by calculating daily, weekly, monthly, yearly expenses from imaginary figures or some such. I started to think that someone had done what I warned about, and tried to hurt the minstry. Then twenty minutes or so later Jimmy got up and did it again but he essentially stated a few things I stated in the email. Their attack was on me! I’m so honoured! I was questioning much at that point but that was God answering a number of prayers I had prayed all in one. My point of this my long winded response was to show how God used one man extract another man caught in a lie ( thing how God used Nebuchadnezzer to save the nation of Israel. Nebuchadnezzer was not a believer). Then when that man was mature enough, he spoke in numbers of ways to show him heresy directly!

    • Mishel says

      Thank you for your story. From what I have observed, they troll for those who have been fed-up with Word of Faith and Dominionism, then offer them something that will, in the end, ensnare them in error that is just as deadly.

  24. James Morrow says

    That is interesting. Around 2002 I really started to separate from any association from the Swaggart ministries and it’s amazing how long suffering the Lord really is. They even cut off the people running the ministry in Australia who had faithfully and dutifully served “the cause” and who had forgone wages even using money earnt from secular chef work to prop up their holy grail – The Telecast. God help us. When it was time to consolidate all ministry functions (profits) to the US. They cut and ran. I had some dealings through the South African set up also. A man by the name of Simon Bartholemew Locke was running it then. I don’t know about now. I ordered many old preaching video tapes from him. I wired a little over $1000 in Australian currency to him through Western Union for about 90 video tapes. I recieved about half that amount some months later and am still waiting ten years on. Several follow-ups by me availed nothing so of course I realised that he was keeping my money. I think I was spending about a half an hour each call and I made three calls. That’s about $100 back then. Pre skype obviously. I know so much about the machinations of the ministry that it’s not funny. It’s amazing how much people will say when they feel free to say it. Donnie’s first divorce. His and Jimmy’s argument with Jennifer Swaggart, before she and Debbie left. The re-marriage of Donnie. I stopped talking to various people in the know because at the time I wished to pray for the Swaggarts and these others were using me as a Father Confessor! I haven’t talked to them since. I thought if you are such a close associate of these people and you tell me, a nobody not close at all, then what spirit are you of! Anyway. I could say more but why bother. Thanks again. James.

  25. Rick says

    The accusations are unsubstantiated!! It appears to me that you all are on a fault finding mission. The bigger question is how are you preaching the Gospel? Are you living a life that glorifies God? Why don’t you spend your time speaking against evolution, homosexuality, abortion and secular humanism in the public school system?

    I am a former Bible College student and have been supporting the ministry for years. What you all don’t bring out is how JSM has stood against sin and preached the uncompromising Gospel for 30+ years. Do things go wrong at times? Sure they do. I’ve been around this country and its hard to find a good preacher. Most of them are too concerned about their 501K tax exempt status and won’t speak the truth.

    As I re-read the blog it just sounds like a bunch of cackling hens – I hope and pray you are doing something more with your life than whining about what JSM did wrong to you!

    • Mishel says

      If you think these accusations are unsubstantiated then either you have not looked at the evidence, or you have chosen to turn a blind eye to it. I think it is self refuting that you call others out for speaking against the Swaggarts but then you turn around and do the exact same thing by speaking against myself and those who have attempted to expose them. I suppose you do not see the irony in this. If you are willing to keep listening despite documented proof of their continued PRACTICE of a lifestyle of unrighteousness then by all means keep listening. In terms of doing more with my life then whining what JSM did wrong to me- that is and never was the issue. However, I suppose it is easier to discredit the messenger than actually listen to what they might be trying to tell you. I understand. I also want to assure you, since you are obviously concerned with how I allocate my time, that this blog is an infinitesimal, and rather unimportant fraction of what I do. It is always amusing to me when people claim I spend ALL my time on calling out the Swaggarts. I only even look at this blog one or two times a month and the Swaggarts are only a small part of the overall content. So with all due respect, the only person whining here is you.

    • T. Heim says

      Have you ever seen a financial statement, or any documented financial information disclosing the ministry costs, e.g. salaries for the Swaggart’s, how many people are on staff in paid positions, what those salaries are, how many stations SBN is actually on, what those costs are?? Are you aware of how much the ministry takes in from ALL sources, (offerings, donations by mail, product sales, and telethons? Has anyone ever verified the stated “need” (amount) they claim for their monthly telethons??

      What never ceases to amaze me is how willing so many Christians are to blindly give to ANY pastor or evangelist who stands up and claims they are doing “the Lord’s work!” They accept, without question, what they’re told. (Even when the person asking has been proven to be “less than honest”). What is that?? There are SO MANY needs in this world…people who are in desperate situations who could use financial help!! There are people around us every day whose needs are OBVIOUS. What a “ministry” it would be if we would be so willing to give to someone like that. The same people who will give to some preacher, without question, are the same ones that question the honesty of a person panhandling on the street!! Why?? God help us! I believe we all have a lot to answer for!

  26. John says

    I was trying to find the JSM website and stumbled on this blog by accident. Thank you Mishel for a place to write my opinion, because i am an old man who cares for a disabled wife and raising a teenage granddaughter, and no one else listens to me. I am not affiliated with JSM in any way (not even Pentecostal) – just love the praise and gospel music on SBN very much and I love Jesus. My life is difficult as I am self employed, getting old and have many burdens. I have found joy and peace on SBN and have heard noting but truth as I understand the Bible.

    I do not feel a spirit of peace, but a spirit of contention on this blog, and feel compelled to write because I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ, including those who may disagree on nuances of doctrine and workplace expectations. It took me many years of stumbling and child raising, and mistakes made, to understand the importance of forgiveness. It is truly the catalyst for a fee and loving spirit because we all so desperately need it, and what we extend to others will be a shadow of the perfect forgiveness we receive from the King who died for us.

    I believe it to be wrong to criticize past scandals, divorces, and other issues that have occurred years ago, and have been repented of by the Swaggart family. They are flesh and blood just as we are, and we are not their judge. I believe all of the complaining about employee issues and how the Swaggarts run their business, is simply that – their business. They are running multiple enterprises – a world class music ministry and evangelistic outreach. Do I agree with everything – of course not. Some of the comments from disgruntled employees are unbelievable. Just leave and get another job if you are not a team player. We are to serve our masters with humility and dignity – not backbiting. I served under some difficult employers in my profession and did my work to their standards and expectations. I left the offices of some other employers due to insurmountable circumstances. All small companies and family owned businesses are mini-dictatorships and employees never have any sense of the weight of responsibility at the helm unless they have been in those shoes. Often the root of the critical spirit is low self esteem or even much worse – jealosy.

    I hope and pray everyone will resolve their differences in a scriptural manner with their brothers and sisters, and approach the communion table with a free and clear spirit of forgiveness. Forgiveness is awesome – out of this world!

  27. David Sanchez says

    I watch Sonlife on occasions, but it is a little disturbing watching the arrogance of Donnie Swaggart on the Frances & Friends Show. When callers call in to ask a question, Frances and Donnie just seem a little rude at times. I do not see humility at all with these two. Something just doesn’t ring right with this ministry. Another turn off is their study Bible they consistently advertise. The Expositor’s Bible. I just recently purchased it and returned it right back. It is very distracting trying to read the Word and Jimmy’s comments all over in red lettering. It’s like he was literally adding to the Word of God. Anyone has this Bible?

    • John says

      Yes I have a copy that I have read fairly extensively. He says some good things at times. He certainly gives commentary that I don’t agree with. To be fair every bible commentary adds notes from the viewpoint of then commentator. However I probably have never seen a study by so interrupted with notes right into the verses. He touts his understanding of the cross throughout and it does not really stimulate much study but more so indoctrinated and reinforces his cross teaching.

      • David Sanchez says

        The Bible is distracting. Mr. Swaggart inputs the wording “the cross, the cross, the cross” too many times within his textual commentaries on the Expositor’s Bible. We get the point. It’s too repetitive, making it kinda an awkward reading. What say you?

  28. Valerie Whitmore says

    I am under no illusion regarding the Swaggart family. The employees must feel like slaves with no basic human rights. But I did watch last Sunday night’s broadcast lead by Bob Cornell, having recorded it to view British Standard Time today. As on other occasions when the Swaggarts are not present I noticed a more relaxed atmosphere. After a previous service when Bob Cornell was in charge he told the congregation at the end of a meeting they could stay for ministry as long as they liked even after the camera’s had stopped rolling. I was encouraged by this change. Last Sunday night the service drew to a close with the piano playing softly for about 5 minutes. The congregation swayed gently & appeared as one & in tune with each other & the Holy spirit. Couples held on to each other. The singers appeared confused as to what they should do. Eventually they all sat down & I hope were able to relax in God’s presence. Just before the camera’s stopped rolling Bob again told the congregation there was no hurry for them to leave. I just pray that the presence of the Lord will become more evident in that place, that hardened hearts will be softened & integrity restored at JSM.

    • T.Heim says

      There will be no integrity, as long as the Swaggart’s are there. The things that happen outside the church service are more important than what happens in the service! Too much emphasis is being placed on church services. The way that we live our lives is our true worship to God! It’s a mistake to attribute the “presence of God” to our emotional responses to music and singing (or being in a room of like-minded people). The presence of God is everywhere, as the Word of God states. As believers, the presence of the Holy Spirit is within us. Our sins are forgiven when we come to Christ by faith, whether or not we feel saved or forgiven. The state of our relationship to God is evidenced by the “fruit” in our lives! The Swaggart’s central focus is on what happens in church, what’s said in church, or what people think or believe. The true measure of one’s spiritual condition is one’s character, the way one behaves toward others, themselves and God. That matters much more to me than one’s outward appearance in church. I don’t understand people who wish to worship, or even associate with them. If Swaggart didn’t have his own ministry, he wouldn’t be in ministry! JSM has no credibility within the evangelical world. The Swaggart’s and their associate pastors only service small, fundamentalist churches, some which call themselves Family Worship Center. I’ve listened to many hours of SBN, so I feel confident about my assessment of the ministry. The ignorance of what’s put forth is astounding! People either have to be as ignorant as they are, or be willing to set aside any common sense or education they may possess in exchange for something they see as beneficial. It appears they are willing to overlook character in order to be entertained, or have their “fundamentalist beliefs” reinforced! It’s quite sad.

      • David says

        It is hard to believe the people in the worship ministry, when they are out of the church, go to bars, party, and use F-bombs on their Facebook pages. This is stuff I am reading. I think a lot of it is lies. This cannot be confirmed.

    • T.Heim says

      I will say that the Cornell’s “appear” to have the most sincerity. Bob seems to be the smartest guy there! He doesn’t say much on the “message of the cross” or “a study in the word.” I’ve seen him attempt to “correct” some of the absurd statements made by Jimmy, but it’s clear that he walks on eggshells while doing it! However, Cornell appears to buy the whole “message of the cross” doctrine to the extent that he is a key player in the Bible college. I don’t know anything about Cornell’s character, but I don’t understand why someone would be willing to be associated with JSM if they are an independent thinker and/or believes character matters.

      • John says

        He is a good guy and so is his wife, you are right on target. He sees some error but over all he is a message of the cross devotee

  29. T. Heim says

    Two things, 1) Does Jimmy Swaggart always travel with body guards? (A rumor going around the internet) It wouldn’t surprise me, because he seems to delight in attacking others, saying controversial things, bragging, and stating how others Christian leaders are jealous of him and hate him because God has chosen to give HIM the “message of the cross.” (See May 2 broadcast of “The Message of the Cross.”

    And secondly, One of the singers from the worship team, Randy Knaps, has recently disappeared from the FWC scene without a word about it from the Swaggart’s! People all over Facebook are asking what happened to him, and no one from the ministry answers. He has a terrific voice, and was obviously, one of their featured singers. It’s strange (almost like Sadam Hussain’s regime)!


    • Mishel says

      Swaggart does not have body guards as one would normally define it. However he does have people who “watch” him. I think this is more for his benefit- I do not think they are worried about what someone might do to him. As far as Randy Knaps goes I have no idea. I would say that either he got on their bad side or found another job. They treat both scenarios with silence. As far as Jimmy having the “message of the cross,” it kind of makes you wonder how anyone ever got saved before Jimmy Swaggart. To hear him talk you would think that for two thousand years NO ONE has got it right.

  30. T.Heim says

    Has anyone ever noticed how rarely anyone at JSM preaches from the gospels? How rarely the actual words of Jesus are quoted? Jesus focused on the condition of the heart. He talked about how important our character is, and how we are to demonstrate our love for God by what we do for, and how we treat our neighbor. Jesus never walked up to people and blurted out “you’re a sinner, and you need to accept me or you’re going to hell!” the only people he treated harshly and spoke bluntly to were the religious hypocrites! (perhaps someone should remind them of that fact).

    Most of their sermons are from the Old Testament, or are Paul’s writings. Swaggart seems to be more in love with Paul than he is with Christ. I think one of the places that he really gets off base is when he tries to extrapolate meaning from the Old Testament stories. He interprets every word as somehow referring to the cross. Yet, it’s interesting that he so harshly criticizes the Hebreaic “movement.”

    There was quite a moment of levity(for me) the other morning on Frances and friends when Jimmy was on the panel. Jimmy stated that it’s a SIN for a Christian to use a prayer shawl or to attend a Passover dinner, or do anything to follow the old Jewish law ( they claim that if you do, your motive is that you don’t believe that the finished work of Christ is satisfactory for salvation) but then he caught himself mid sentence and said “oh, except for circumcision! We do that for “health reasons” ( I guess Jimmy is unaware that circumcision is not medically necessary)! The Swaggart’s constantly judge the motives of people they’ve never met. It doesn’t even seem to enter their mind that a Christian might just want to participate in some of those things for the experience, or for a greater understanding, or to share and relate with the Jewish friend! Just like they accuse Christians of relying on works for salvation when they do things like pass out water bottles or feed the hungry or volunteer for community events, etc. Do they not understand that “works” follow “faith, or are the result of our faith and love for Christ (faith without works is dead)?

    Anyway, to me these are just some of the obvious things that stick out with the Swaggart ministry. They appear to be self-evident and I would think, be enough for one to be able to question the validity of this ministry. Evidently not!

    Jimmy Swaggart is a talented musician! and he hires talented musicians! I postulate that if it wasn’t for his music, he would not have a ministry! But it’s hard for me to enjoy his music because of his arrogance, false teaching, rudeness, unloving and bitter spirit. Not to mention the repetition! Does anyone know why he has to repeat the same verse 2 or 3 times, or the whole song over and over and over again? Does he think we didn’t get it the first time? I have wondered about this for a while! Frankly, I think he must just like to hear the sound of his own voice, or he thinks what he is singing is so profound that we have to hear it 2 or 3 times or more! He constantly has a live microphone and interjects while others are performing! It’s clearly all about him!

  31. David says

    I have a question, how many times has Donnie Swaggart married? Someone told me he’s had several divorces. Is that true? As I read the Bible, divorce is a major sin like homosexuality and adultery.

    • T.Heim says

      You don’t! You are better off getting a good English translation (ESV or RSV) or a paraphrase (like The Living Bible, or The Message). Jimmy Swaggart is NOT a Bible scholar! He has NO training or Education in his background to approach such a daunting task (interpret all scripture). Most scholars don’t consider themselves experts on everything about or in scripture. The King James Bible (the only version Swaggart believes is accurate) has undergone 19 revisions!! 19! Many scholars, over the years, were involved in this product. It takes experts in English, Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. It takes historians (Jewish, Christian, religious and secular). Swaggart doesn’t seem to appreciate this. He writes as if HE is the final authority, and is infallible. Only the most arrogant, self-deluded person would attempt such a thing! I would never trust a product produced by a person like that!

    • T.Heim says

      Marriages and divorces are public record. A search of public records should reveal that answer. I asked that question on Donnie Swaggarts Facebook page. The response? “What does it matter?” And then, they blocked me!
      I read somewhere that Donnie and first wife Debbie divorced due to an affair she had with someone on the worship team. He married a “Linda,” and divorced her and then he remarried Debbie. Don’t know if it’s true. But, I have always wondered because he rarely ever mentions her or talks about marriage or family (except for Gabe). She appears in their family pictures posted on the internet. If not for that, it would be difficult to know she exists!
      And yes, divorce is no different than homosexuality in terms of sin. Christians don’t seem to take that seriously enough!

      • David says

        Yes, and I noticed in many churches, possibly at the FWC as well, couples have intimate relationships without being married. They figure that they’re in grace by just believing in Christ, his resurrection, and the Cross to be enough. Their reasoning is that they’ll eventually get married, so why not have sex. Then these people make a big deal about homosexuals. Don’t get it.

  32. Valerie Whitmore says

    A reply to T.Heim. From my experience You can feel different degrees of the of the Holy Spirit. Last Sunday night did not appear to me to be emotionalism. I felt that the congregation were resting in the Lord. There was an unusual sense of peace. Jimmy later reported that many people from around the world commented on last Sunday’s services with the Cornell’s, especially the evening service.

    An issue I am concerned about is that if employees who live on Swaggart territory leave their jobs they may be asked to vacate their homes within 24 hours. Are there no laws in place to protect them.

    • T.Heim says

      Ex-I would think Louisiana has landlord and tenant laws on the books. Unless a tenant is savvy about the law, a landlord can get by with violating it. These ex-tenants & employees may have a case against JSM. If they’ve truly been wronged, they should pursue it, not only for their benefit but for the benefit of others. Especially ones who we’re fired without cause. Why are they not eligible for unemployment?

      Another thing I’ve noticed is that the Swaggarts always arrive and leave the platform through that back door. Do they not interact with their parishioners and guests? Also, Gabriel is frequently absorbed in his I-Pad, tapping constantly throughout the sermon. I’ve heard people call in to Frances &Friends and mention this, and they are always defensive about it, saying that he is taking notes on the sermon, etc. To me, it doesn’t appear that he’s “taking notes.” Regardless, it’s clear that the Swaggarts believe that EVERYTHING they think and do is correct and above reproach! Gabriel even complained on one of his shows, that people were criticizing his recent haircut, saying that he looked like a punk rocker, or that it was too “worldly” looking. he was saying how silly that all was, and I have to agree! but then Gabriel turns around and criticizes other churches other pastors other people for similarly ridiculous things….. music or dress, or movies etc. I think they invite that type of criticism buy their own critical

  33. Skunk says

    WOW! My head is spinning and now I am really confused! I thought I wanted the JSM study bible, now not so sure.

    • T.Heim says

      You don’t! You are better off getting a good English translation (ESV or RSV) or a paraphrase (like The Living Bible, or The Message). Jimmy Swaggart is NOT a Bible scholar! He has NO training or Education in his background to approach such a daunting task (interpret all scripture). Most scholars don’t consider themselves experts on everything about or in scripture. The King James Bible (the only version Swaggart believes is accurate) has undergone 19 revisions!! 19! Many scholars, over the years, were involved in this product. It takes experts in English, Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. It takes historians (Jewish, Christian, religious and secular). Swaggart doesn’t seem to appreciate this. He writes as if HE is the final authority, and is infallible. Only the most arrogant, self-deluded person would attempt such a thing! I would never trust a product produced by a person like that!

      • David says

        It is my understanding the at King James Version Bible underwent only 2 revisions. It was published in 1611 and a revision was made in 1769, just to correct some spelling and minor grammar mistakes. I think this translation is the most accurate. It does not take out verse or water down the message like in modern Bibles. But I was quite taken aback that Jimmy Swaggart interjected his comments and ideas into the actual word of God in red lettering. I returned the Bible. It was very awkward and inappropriate!

        • T.Heim says

          You are right. I misspoke. It is 19 printing releases. As language changes, word spellings need to be updated. There is an argument for 4 actual revisions. But my point is that the revision process (as well as initial translation–done by around 50 different scholars over many years) wouldn’t be credible if it had been done by one individual(with no credentials)!

          Also, F. Dake, (writer of Dake’s Study Bible) sued Swaggart for plagiarism. An comparative analysis of the work demonstrated convincing evidence that Swaggart plagiarized much of his commentary. And his belief that God has given him this “new revelation” (message of the cross) drove him to interpret every scripture with that prevailing thought.

  34. Artista says

    I watch SBN only to get a good laugh. Folks there are so brainwashed it’s amazing. This sharathon is more like scamathon or begathon. The evil Donnie exudes is scary. I can’t believe he was making people feel bad last night about not giving enough. “I’ve never seen such a slow Thursday night.” First everyone was excited and saying hallelujah for the $100 donations. Then $500. Soon after only the $1000 got more praise. Now that’s not enough. Give more! You can clearly see the fear and apprehension in even the singers and musicians. I feel bad for the Connely’s for they seem to be the only decent honest ones in there. You couldn’t pay me to be in Jill Swaggart’s place. Married to a nut, father in law evil, and grandfather in law holier than thou– all very controlling and abusive people. I was going to call to give a 1 dollar donation to see the reaction when finding out I’m 50 and not 3. Very dispicable people.

    • T.Heim says

      To me, SBN is my reality show entertainment, like watching Duck Dynasty! Every time I hear something outrageously stupid, incorrect or flat out untrue, I think it can’t get any worse…..until the next one comes down the pike! I have a hard time believing that they actually raise the amounts of money they claim. I have heard of ministries fudging numbers to make them look more successful. Their claims regarding the number of bibles they have sent seems innacurate! I can’t remember the quote they gave but it was over 6 figures, and I can’t imagine that they know of that many pastors who need free Bibles! Then they claim that the Expositors bible is the best selling Bible on the market, as if people were actually purchasing them. Yesterday, Jimmy S. Claimed he “won” the debate he had with the Muslim clerek several years ago (you can view it on YouTube). I saw that debate, if you could even call it that! It wasn’t one at all. Both Swaggart and the Muslim were terrible…no winner could be declared. Yet, Swaggart told the congregation and TV audience that he won! I really think Swaggart is delusional! He constantly talks about visions and dreams, and God telling him this and that, showing him things! Its really creepy! I don’t know how long they can stay on the air. I don’t understand how there can be enough people who believe in them and support their grandiose plans! It’s crazy!

      • John says

        You make some valid observations. As far as Pastors needing free bibles, think about it. They tell people that they have say 5,000 Pastors that need bibles and then people call in and buy these bibles to give away. JSM is making $20-$25 a bible so they will gladly “give them away” to 1 million pastors as long as the faithful keep calling in and paying for them.

        • David Sanchez says

          As I posted before, I had to return my JSM Bible. I did not feel comfortable reading the Bible along with JS red lettering comments all over it. It did not sit right with me. Moreover, the commentaries were too repetitive, namely repeating The cross, The cross, The cross for a whole spectrum of scripture texts, either Old or New Testaments. For example, even if it said, ” Jesus was walking along the woods, ” Jimmy would interject “this meant the cross” to it. Actually, it felt quite amateurish. I just stopped watching SBN recently. The arrogance of the people there was a turn off. Additionally, I had recently googled the JSM to see what came up. I was shocked to find out the scores of scandals relating Jimmy Swaggart. I said, enough is enough.

          • T.Heim says

            Well, good for you! I’m surprised at the number of people who aren’t familiar with Swaggart’s history! I know some people criticize anyone who tries to bring up someone’s past, which shouldn’t be done if the person has asked for forgiveness and there has been reconciliation! And there is a BIG difference between a “private” person and a “public” figure concerning scandal! Since Swaggart rejected the discipline of his denomination, refused to explain himself when caught a second time (three years later) telling his congregation “it’s none of your business,” he has proven himself to be a person of poor and untrustworthy character! Additionally, he has separated himself from ANY oversight and/or accountability person in his life, claiming he only “listens to the Holy Spirit.” Right! On the one hand, he says he can’t do anything without the Lord, that we’re “nothing”, that man’s efforts are futile, etc. but then he believes that HE can accurately assess the voice of the Lord (with his frail, poor mind that all “men” have)! It’s contradictory, and frankly, crazy! At times, I think he is delusional! He relays “conversations” that he thinks he’s had with God, word for word! Dreams and visions, same thing! He is puffed up, proud, unteachable by any other human. Completely un-Biblical! So, he’s making a fool of himself! And taking a lot of foolish people with him. I’m glad to hear that you have used your God-given senses, and moved on! I pray that more will do so!

        • T.Heim says

          You’re right! I looked at their ad on the JSM website, and it states, “POSSIBLY, the fastest selling Bible in the world.” Interesting! They also claim over 1 million sold! They have to be counting the “donated” Bibles, considering where the Exp.Study Bible falls on the Amazon sellers list! During the Bible-thons, they never give any indication how much of the money is used for “postage and handling,” staff salaries, etc. It’s hard to believe that, based upon the amount of money collected and the number of Bibles purchased, there could be that many “pastors” awaiting a free Bible. They do this MONTHLY! Since no one knows for sure, I can’t imagine where all that money is REALLY going! Every month, they raise the telethon amount between $2-3 hundred thousand dollars! I noticed that they regularly fall about $2-3 hundred thousand short! So, they make up for it the next month, but push it another $2 hundred K! It’s incredible how their expenses can grow by that much over one month’s time! And, I don’t understand people who will blindly give without ANY information as to what the REAL needs are and how the money is used! For Ex: How many of the singers and pastors are on staff? What are their salaries? How much is taken in weekly at the church services? By mail? Book & music purchases? Camp meetings?

          I also wonder how many people actually follow through with their pledges. My guess is that most do follow through. Another interesting thing is the “media church” membership. Every week, they read off every name of every person who signs up (so they say). It sounds like hundreds of people sign up every week. They tell people that they are to pay tithes to FWC. It appears that they are reading off the names of several members of the same family, to make it look like they are all new individual accounts. Also, some of the names sound a little suspect….for ex: last Sunday a “Mary and Joseph” signed up from one city. I’ve heard some other rather unusual Biblical names, like Elijah, Adam and Eve, Abel, etc. Some of those could be real, but I wonder if some people aren’t signing up as a joke, or the Swaggarts’ add those names just to make it appear more are signing up. Who knows. But, the whole operation seems suspect!

  35. MB says

    My mother got sucked into this terrible ministry, I have a hard time talking to her now because all she does is spew JSMisms at me and anyone else around her. She quit attending church several years ago so she could devote ALL of her time to watching this charlatan. She pushed all her friends away because in her eyes only Jimmy knows Gods word and they got tired of hearing it, JSM has literally consumed her life! I pray for some words that I could say to open her eyes to this so called ministries con game. What I truly believe she needs is de-programing like they used to do for the HaraKrischna’s. Because this looks to me like a terrible cult. I fear she is so far gone into this realm that like Jim Jones followers she would gladly drink a cup of tainted Kool-Aid if Jimmy told her to.

    • T.Heim says

      I know what you mean! I have spoken directly with several Jimmy Swaggart followers, and they ALL seem to be extremely defensive of him and the ministry! They all appear to be “in love” with Swaggart and/or “THE message of the Cross,” but they rarely talk about Jesus! It is very “cult-like,” I think what appeals to people like this is the idea that THEY possess something THEY think we haven’t got, but desperately need! It’s the idea of some “special knowledge” or “special revelation” that, for some reason, God has chosen to give to one person or a select number of people. It creates spiritual pride! I have never met a “smart” Jimmy Swaggart follower. Perhaps, this “special knowledge” really appeals to people who are uneducated, ignorant, etc. because people like this generally have very low self-esteem. So, there’s nothing more ego-boosting than to possess something “special.” I think it’s really sad, but this is promoted by the Swaggarts! None of them are very intelligent, or educated, for that matter!

      • James says

        I can’t believe your spiritual pride and self-righteousness. Try this on.The lie of Roman Catholicism has no intelligent people in it because they believe they have some special revelation from God? That is utter folly. I read a book by a Jesuit, obviously a dumby, who put a nasty Roman twist on reformation history. He also spoke 17 languages and taught in seminary. This was just one “no-body” in this vast empire of lies. Didn’t the pharisees also mock Christ? “Does any good come out of Galilee?”

        • T.Heim says

          I’m not sure what you’re trying to say…..or what you think I said. Roman Catholicism doesn’t claim “special revelation.” They claim they are the original Christian church with continuous apostolic authority….and that is true! I’m not Roman Catholic, but protestants have much in common with Catholicism, and we should focus on the things that unite us, rather than divide us. However, as far as intelligence goes, Catholics are very educated, and Catholic priests go through a much more rigorous education and seminary training than many protestant denominations…e.g. non-denominational, pentecostal, fundamentalist churches tend to have the least educated clergy! The result being churches like Swaggarts! They are exhibit 1! And, it seems like people in the deep south don’t value education that much. In fact, the Swaggarts and their followers seem to put down “education” and educated people….believing that somehow education is a disadvantage to having an authentic spiritual experience! I think it’s just the opposite! There is a ton of false doctrine, and a laziness in people who think like this….always expecting some supernatural intervention to solve a problem that can (and probably should be) solved by acting on one’s own behalf, or seeking help though counseling, psychologists, self-help groups, further personal Bible study, etc.

          • James says

            I said exactly what I intended to say. As for not being a Roman, yet defending them proves my point. Spiritual pride! You mock the Swaggart’s modus operandi yet kindly ignore Romish supperstitious slavery based upon “gradual” revelation over nearly two millenia. As for “The Church” not believing they have special revelation, you are gravely in error. Will a non-Roman “christian” make it to heaven without Romish sacraments? Your answer will show whether you are a Jesuit, or a mindless deceived pleb. Will you parry my comments, not answering ALL my points, concentrating upon “uniting” us all and casting aspersions upon a common enemy (Swaggart) – Jesuit. Or perhaps you’ll rant about your friends the Romans, of course you’re not one, and how lovely and intelligent the folk in the largest cult in history are? – Mindless deceived pleb. I’ll keep note of your bloggs more now, Jesuit Father.

          • T.Heim says

            You clearly have a problem! I don’t understand where such hatred comes from, especially by people who claim to be Bible-believing! I am critical of the Swaggarts for many reasons…one, the hypocrisy of Jimmy Swaggart, the arrogance of the entire Swaggart family (Jimmy, Donnie, Gabriel and Frances….can’t speak to the others), and the false doctrine they teach! All 3 things damage the cause of Christ. As far as Catholicism goes, I recognize that there are many differing doctrines and traditions in Christianity and most of these doctrinal differences are concerning “non-essential (to salvation)” doctrines. The most important common bond is the Orthodox Christian Doctrines that we all share! That is what we should celebrate. No one denomination or set of doctrinal beliefs, or no one person’s theology is 100% correct! (nobody can assume complete understanding of God….if that were possible, we would BE God)! A true Christian will have the humility to know that they are not right about everything, and be willing to be teachable and open to greater wisdom and understanding as they walk with Christ. Jesus said, “By this shall all men know you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” The Swaggarts demonstrate that they do not love ANYONE but themselves, their ministry, their beliefs, their interpretation of scripture, etc. They are haughty and proud. They can’t get through one program, one church service without criticizing someone or something outside of their world! You can go ahead and defend that, live like that….but you appear miserable, and that attitude will not draw anyone to Christ, and will not warm people to yourself! Let go of your need to criticize, to speak poorly of a part of the Body of Christ. God is doing miraculous work throughout the work…in many different denominations, countries, cities, and people’s hearts! God is a creative being….the Body of Christ is a beautiful tapestry of unique people who find creative ways to serve God and witness for Christ! Be a part of it! But, you won’t fit in if you constantly run down everything you don’t like, understand or agree with! Strive for common ground. Strive for an excuse to love and except, rather than look for the excuse to discard and reject!

          • James says

            Fascinating. You are critical of the Swaggarts for their gross error, me to if you bothered to check, while defending the lying devil of Rome which teaches salvation through itself alone! Roman Catholicism is a demonic lie. Any “bible believing” christian knows this by reading hundreds, read hundreds, of condemnations in scripture against all Rome teaches. You are a Jesuit! You have been outed! I wonder how many hundreds reading this banter between us are nodding in agreement now? Is Rome a “part of the tapestry that unites us” or is ita false way leading to damnation. Christ reproved HARSHLY! Many, many times. No doubt your bible has been altered to deny this. You say I have no love. Christ was crucified because he rebuked, reproved and corrected the “Rome” of his day!!! The traditions of man while ignoring God’s word were his rebuke. Travelling land and sea to make one proselyte while making him two fold the child of Satan! Oh please. Jesus was crucified because he rebuked! Answer that loving Jesuit Father!

          • T.Heim says

            Why don’t you just work on changing your own heart? If they are “the devil,” God will take care of them in the end. It’s not YOUR job anyway! Get your heart and mind on Jesus and His Word, and what you can do to serve Him on a daily basis. This kind of toxic hatred destroys YOU…it doesn’t do anything to or for anyone else! The Roman church isn’t going anywhere! Perhaps you should let it go! I’m not, nor ever have been Catholic. I’m female, so I can’t be a priest. I have Catholic friends who are delightful, loving people who love Jesus. That’s what I know for sure! I don’t know anything about you except you are full of hatred and anger. So sorry.

          • James says

            Yes Jesuit Father, I am full of hatred! I am also full of anger and intollerance! I declare this before God and man and I am biblical in doing this. Oh, I forgot to say what I’m intolletant, hateful and angry against. To be biblical I guess it would be against error! You know? Don’t you? Those things which claim to be “christian” yet proclaim another Jesus, another gospel. You know don’t you? The gospel? Yes. Yes. I am a bigot. It is fas inating how aggressive against me you are. You condemn me, who has killed, stolen from or destroyed the ruputation of no one yet defend the indefensible. The Roman Catholic lie! As cor your assertion that you are a woman. Hah. Newspaper stories always tell of police who catch paedophiles by getting into chat rooms pretending to be female! How’s that? A man claiming to be female. Nooooo! Surely not! Alas! It is true. A man lying, pretending to be female. I suppose that:s the weakness of the internet. It is easy to deceive. I suppose the “believer” will just have totrust the only “truth” there is to guide their soul. Rome?

          • James says

            Is the purpose of this blog to glorify Christ? Then expose that which hates him! If the sole purpose of this blogis to pull apart the Swaggart’s falsehoods, then it can’t be of God. Let all those who love God’s truth say amen. So are you a man pretending to be a woman? Obvious I think. You, again, answered nothing I asked, merely diverting attention. A typical jesuitical technique. Wylie wrote of you well!

          • T.Heim says

            You just confirm my point about the type of ministry the Swaggarts lead, and the kind of people they attract! You’re not a serious person, so there is no purpose in trying to converse. The Swaggaets come across on the air just like you have, except not quite as irrational. I predict they won’t grow much once the corner the market with the ignorant fundamentalists! That’s their congregation…. He preaches to “the choir” so to speak. It’s the fundamentalist Christians who keep getting “saved” over and over, and “refilled” with the speaking in tongues thing. No one else can figure out what the heck they’re talking about.

  36. David Sanchez says

    I only watch “Insights” with John Rosenstern on SBN. But even he endorses everything Mr. Swaggart says. They are continually advertising the JSM Study Bible, having bibletrons periodically.

  37. John says

    T. Heim
    I agree that the Swaggart Ministry in problematic, However you are incorrect in stating that it is the fundamentalist that teach you speak in tongues and get refilled with the spirit. The fundamental camp are usually cessasional in doctrine meaning that they feel the gifts of the spirit have ceased, Tongues, prophecy, healing, word of wisdom, word of knowledge ect, ect. However the swaggarts have blended reformed fundamental theology with Pentecostal theology and created a real mess that makes very little sense to anyone. They have the dogmatic harshness of fundamentalist while minting that they are still Pentecostal. I would argue that they are far more like fundamental baptist than true Pentecostals.

    • T.Heim says

      In my experience, most fundamentalists are pentecostal. And, more and more churches are non-denominational. I define fundamentalism as a long list of additional, non-essential behaviors/doctrines one must follow in order to be truly “saved” or live an authentic Christian life (e.g. abstaining from alcohol, cigarettes, church attendance, styles of music). I don’t know of any pentecostals who are cessationists (seems like a contradiction in terms), although some pentecostals are dropping “speaking in tongues” as being a necessary sign for the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which is the correct Biblical stance, IMO). By “reformed” fundamental theology, do you mean reformation theology or Calvinism?
      The Swaggart’s are definitely NOT Calvinists!

      I wrote my “dissertation” on the Swaggart ministry on another area of this blog…”Jimmy Swaggart Falls By His Own Sword.” I’ve outlined the primary reasons why the Swaggarts are so off-base: arrogance and isolation! Every time I hear Swaggart speak (I just listened to 30 minutes of a sermon this morning), he goes off into these detailed stories of dreams, visions, and revelations he thinks he has with God on a regular basis. He’s truly deluded himself into thinking that He is the modern day Apostle Paul! He’s surrounded himself with loyal family and “yes men” who constantly reinforce his delusions. It’s hard to say whether or not they all believe Swaggart 100%, or they just go along for the paycheck! That’s why it’s important to know what the financial ties are with the ministry, how they spend their money, who’s on staff, what each are paid, etc. Because all of that is very telling regarding the motives, values and priorities of the organization.

      I think believers need a good dose of common sense! Non-denominational churches should be scrutinized carefully….doctrines and finances are the key! Charismatic leaders who get famous often want to “do their own thing.” Often, they become popular because of some unique “message” or “talent.” The more popular and successful one gets, the harder it is to listen to, and take advice or correction” from someone else. It’s human nature to resist accountability. And organizations, credentialing bodies, boards of directors, etc. all require accountability. This SHOULD BE self-evident, as history tells us that, more likely than not, the people at the top implode! It happens over and over…it’s more common than success. Billy Graham is one of the rare examples! I don’t know why people don’t study his playbook! God gave them wisdom, and they structured a self-imposed accountability system that worked! As believers, we need to stop wasting the resources God has given us, stop throwing much needed resources at organizations and people who are just getting wealthy, and hold leaders ACCOUNTABLE for what they SAY and DO!

      • John says

        I agree with most of what you are saying, so I’m not arguing but what you mean by fundamentalist is not really what they are. There may be some Pentecostals that act rigid, judgemental and mean like many of the fundamentalist. However the main thrust of fundementalisim is the literal interpretation of scripture and the inerrancy of scripture. The problem is they are they lift their interpretation above all others. Pentecostalism was really a total divergent from fundementalisim and as time has gone by Pentecostal have taken some of these unpleasant characteristics but the two are by no means intrinsically connected.

        When I say reformed I do mean Calvinist, while Jimmy will claim he does not believe once in grace always in grace his theology leaves no other conclusion. However Jimmy often takes it to an antinomian conclusion that Calvin would make Calvin cringe. In fact if you look at ” the finished work doctrine” it has it’s roots in reformed baptist theology. Jimmy view of sanctification. Is taken directly from this, in fact it was the finished work theory that split early Pentecostals down the middle back in the early 1900s. The Assemblies of God in which Jimmy belonged went this route as many of their early leaders were baptist that had received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and left the baptist church over tongues but retained much of their reformed tradition with a Pentecostal Flavor. You will find that the churches such as the church of God, Holliness Pentecostal church and church of God in Christ were strikingly different back in those days. They were formed from the Wesleyan tradition and were much more focused on being perfected in the Love of God than those going the more reformed route. While this is a subject I could write pages on I won’t bore with anymore details. However I am in total agreement with you that the swaggart ministry is completely off base. Just keep in mind that there are good and sincere people that follow them and God is patient kind and merciful. His purposes are redemptive and never vengeful. At times I wish many of these men that cause problems in the body would just be wiped off the map but that is not Gods way and while Inwill lovingly speak to people under the swaggart delusion I know and have seen first hand that only the Holy Spirit can open their eyes as to what is really going on there.

        • T.Heim says

          I can see where you get your “Calvinist” assessment of Swaggart’s teaching, however, he constantly contradicts himself. He says the “cross” is the answer to every problem man has. He says that Christ is the “source” and the cross is the “means.” But, he constantly talks about “sin!” He makes practically EVERYTHING sin (except for anything that HE does). He emphasizes confessing every sin stating that God won’t forgive unconfessed sin. And sin, by his definition, is always focused on “vices.” He never mentions sins of omission, sins of attitude/character. He admits we can’t get through a day without sinning, so we have to be constantly confessing and asking forgiveness. He definitely believes one can “lose” salvation. He even claims that if you use a prayer shawl or experience a Passover seder, you are committing sin! Any music, except for worship music (in his style, of course) is SIN! So, the logical conclusion of his view of the “message of the Cross” might be antinomianism, but his teaching does not support that. His teaching appears to be nothing but a bunch of semantics. It’s not practical! I don’t know how anyone can go away from any of JSM’s sermons, and know how to apply it to one’s life! His contention that “service” to others, fasting or any spiritual discipline for that matter is “works!” He actually believes that Christians and Churches that have community service programs, meal programs, homeless outreaches, caring for the sick, etc. are all “works of the flesh.” He carries it so far as to say it’s SIN, or it’s “putting Christ back on the cross” because he thinks it’s being done solely for the purpose of working for salvation! Preaching and singing are the only two things the “church” should do! I’ve noticed that all the ministers at JSM preach almost entirely from Paul’s writings and the Old Testament. If they preach from the gospels, they only talk about the “miracles” that Jesus did. They completely ignore the “teaching/preaching” of Christ himself, except for the times Jesus was angry or rebuked someone! It’s rather strange! They talk about God being “Love,” and they say “We love you” all the time, but it never appears/feels/looks like love. I think it really gets to me because it reminds me of the church I grew up in! It’s weird. When I ran across Swaggart on TV about a year ago, it was like I had walked into a 50 year time warp! The songs they were singing, the music, preaching, the way the people look (rarely does anyone smile), act, dress, etc. Wow! I’m so glad to be free of that environment! But, I feel sorry for the people who get caught up in that! My parents were uneducated (didn’t graduate from high school). Most of the church members were farmers. Uneducated and poor. That was the congregation. Swaggart’s followers are just like that (obviously some of them have money in order to raise $3M/month or more). It’s called spiritual abuse. I hate hearing stories like Mishel’s! The Swaggart’s behavior demonstrates that THEY DO NOT understand the “GOSPEL.” I assume that there are honest and sincere people in the congregation. I’m sure there are plenty of others like Mishel. I hope that people find the courage to get themselves out from that situation.

          One reason I feel so passionately about this is my own experience. The pastor of one of the churches I grew up in turned out to be a closet homosexual who was involved in promiscuous relationships for many years. Ultimately, he was fired for theft. He had been stealing money from the offerings. This was allowed to happen because the church board was weak, they allowed the pastor to handle all the money, they didn’t question his frequent disappearances to “bible studies” and “conferences” held out of town. The pastor of the other church divorced his wife and remarried another woman. Two of his three children rebelled and got into all kinds of trouble. So, I know human nature is what it is, regardless of how “spiritual” some folks appear. Swaggart is not trustworthy! The “red flags” are all over that ministry!

          • John says

            First off that is great to me that it seems you are open to God moving and working in peoples life through many different christian traditions, Pentecostal, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian ect,ect.

            As far as the full extent of Swaggarts theology it is a total contradiction. If you would have followed the ministry over the last 3 years you would have heard them go through a short phase where they taught there was no need for christians to repent as long as their faith was in the cross. They promoted Justification by faith by stating that if you are smoking a joint but your faith is in the cross then you are unphased as a christian. They went on to further complicate matters with confusion of terminology. They speak constantly of the “sin nature” and state that if you take your faith out of the cross the sin nature will dominate you and force you to sin. They state that satan can override your will, they still teach this, however they have steered away from the teaching that says you don’t need to repent. Joseph Prince still teaches that and really has very close teaching to that of what the swaggarts state. Jimmy and Loren Larson constantly state that when you accept christ your sins are forgiven “Past, present and future”. This is baptist eternal security theology. Sadly swaggart is unaware that if you are going to teach that then the only conclusion is that you can never lose salvation. Calvin himself would not have agreed with this because he believed in election or that some are predestined to salvation and some to damnation. However the question remains how do you know if you are elect? According to Calvin it is because you persevere till the end. Many Calvinist will site the scripture make you calling and election sure, they do this to discourage people from thinking we just sin and grace covers all. They also assert the only thing that “awakens the sin nature” is to “take ones faith out of the cross”, yet on the other hand I have heard them state that you can look at pornography and so long as your faith is in the cross your “sin nature” remains dormant. Very strange to say the least.

            Anyway, you certainly have picked up on the inconstant and erroneous teaching coming from the swaggarts but you literally could write a book several hundred pages long discussing the strange things that they teach.

          • T.Heim says

            You’re absolutely right about that….a very long book! I’m really quite surprised to hear that they had an antinomian position! You would never know to listen to them now. And, you’re right about how they conflate “sin nature” and “committing sin.” They definitely conflate and distort other doctrines as well, so it’s really difficult to describe exactly what they mean. I really don’t know what the people who follow him are getting!

            I definitely appreciate the “diversity” of tradition within Christianity! I don’t see God as limited as the Swaggart’s present Him. His creative power is at work in all of his creation, within nature and human beings! I believe that there are core, essential doctrines (confessions) that define “orthodox” Christianity, the absence of any creates something other than Christianity….basically the Apostle’s Creed, or Westminster confession of faith, etc. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, virgin birth, substitutional atonement, deity of Christ, etc. Outside of these is what creates the denominations, and I could live with most of them! And certainly, we are to have fellowship and support one another. As far as “personal revelation” or prophecy, word of knowledge, etc. I won’t deny they can and probably do occur, but I don’t believe they should have any impact on what I believe or how I behave! I am extremely skeptical of “speaking in tongues.” My experience is that I see little to no difference in the lives of people who claim to be “filled” and those who don’t. In fact, more often than not, those who claim to be filled have more problems with sin, etc than those who don’t. Most ministries who push the “baptism in H/S” are looking for the “phenomena” of “supernatural tongues” instead of fearlessness, strength, courage, power, for the gospel, and the “fruit” of the spirit! I never have heard ANY of the Swaggart ministers ever speak about the purpose for the “infilling” except for power over sin…or to experience “miraculous” supernatural signs.

            Just quickly, you mentioned Joseph Prince. The Swaggarts talk about him alot. I’ve listened to quite a few of his sermons, and I have not gotten the impression that he teaches you can “do or live” any ungodly live you wish after you’re saved. He definitely preaches grace in a beautiful way! I appreciate that so much, because I NEVER heard a sermon like that until I got to the Presbyterian church! I have understood that when we become Christians, Jesus blood covers all sin past, present and future! I think it’s impossible to name every single sin we commit. Besides, doesn’t sin mean “missing the mark?” I think if we’re truly born again, we desire to follow Jesus to the best of our ability. And we grow in His grace and love. But we still fail. If we die before we can ask forgiveness, I don’t think we are considered “lost.” I believe in the “preservation of the saints” to the extent that as long as our WILL is to follow Jesus, we are saved. But, my “free-will” theology tells me that if I can “decide” to accept Jesus, I can change my mind at some future time and walk away. In that case, just as God does not “force” us to accept Him, he cannot “force” us to stay. But, it would have to be a conscious, will-full act! Every time I hear a good message about grace, I get so thrilled and excited and motivated to love Jesus more and to do His Will! It never drives me to think “Oh, well I guess I can do what I want and go sin as much as I want.” NO, it seems to have to opposite effect! Just as it did when Jesus showed mercy and grace on sinners in scripture. People went away excited and joyful. So, I really don’t know what people worry about with people like J. Prince!

            I’ve enjoyed our conversation very much! I know this is time consuming, and I appreciate you time!

          • James says

            I am not that amazed at the ecumenical lie that this individual proclaims. This person, T Heim, ridicules Swaggart about his obvious errors yet is quite at home accepting the devilish traditions of Popery! Never a word of condemnation against idolatry, salvation by works or Romes’ slavery of Priestly reliance for absolution! How evil! By emphasising obvious errors of a common foe, then throwing a blanket over all else in ‘christianity’ and saying all core beliefs are alike in all traditions is gross error!!! It is also sin! How can Christ fellowship with Belial, or darkness with light! T Heim is an ecumenist who’s intent is to lead bible believing christians away from Christ to a neutral ‘we are one’ philosophy. The ecumenical lie, begun and promoted by Rome, is T Heim’s god! Swaggart does teach salvation by correctly. His error has built over decades, as has his avarice, leading to the same error as Judas Iscariot! Judas was a part of the twelve, yet lost his place because he became a thief. He rejected truth, and Christ, losing his soul. This is Swaggart’s error. Yet Judas was one of the twelve, called apostle, and had the power of God to cast out devils, lay hands on the sick, etc as shown in Matthew ten. T Heim promotes angst against Swaggart, a common distress to all reading this blog, while subtly unites ‘traditions’ as essentially being the same. T Heim is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. BEWARE!!!!!!

          • John says

            For some reason it would not allow me to reply to your last post so I will on this one. It has been nice to talk with you as well. I’ll explain a few final things from my perspective in this post.

            First Jospeh prince, I don’t worry much about him because his influence really isn’t tremendous but he preaches a very soft gospel with lots of wiggle room. He has mixed the same ” finished work of the cross” doctrine as Jimmy but given it a more positive spin and mixed it with more word of faith thought. He state in his book destined to reign that with your faith in the finished work there is no sickness, no poverty and no guilt of sin. This is word of faith he has just replaced their idea of speaking your blessing into existence with having faith in the proper object to reccieve your blessing. He states the object is the finished work of the cross. Ironically he too claims to have received this thru special revelation and even states that he believed the year was 1997 and the is the same year swaggart states that he got the revelation. Prince is not nearly as dogmatic and does not claim lofty apostolic authority the way swaggart does but their content is closely related.
            Prince says some good things at times and his lovely accent and upbeat disposition are very disarming. However I am not in agreement with his teaching.

            As a Wesleyan Pentecostal I of course believe in the charismata or the gifts of the spirit, can they be abused and misused? Yes absolutely and Paul deals with his extensively in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 and 13. Can I understand why you are skeptical of tongues? Yes and I don’t argue tongues with people because I care more about unity with the brethren and influencing people to pursue Christ than I don splitting hairs over tongues. Do I believe in tongues? Yes, however I believe there are many who claim to be filled with he spirit that are anything but. Many Pentecostal believe that tongues is the initial evidence one has been filled with the spirit. I don’t argue this point either but I can not find a better evidence in the book of acts. However lets suppose it is the intital “evidence”. Then what is the proof? I maintain it’s a heart filled with love and a life that exhibits the fruit of the spirit and a holy life free of sin. You also make a good point about boldness, strength and courage to spread the gospel. If we claim to be baptized in the spirit as they were in acts we need to see it has had the same effect upon us as it did them. And if not maybe many of us Pentecostal need to reevaluate what we received.

            I will also have to disagree on the statement our sins are forgiven past present and future. I understand where this idea comes from and I certainly understand why it gains traction with people. It’s roots are in reformed theology which states that we always remain inherently sinful and are never really delivered from original sin, that nature or inclination always remaind therefore Christ must have forgiven even our future sins when we accept him because after all were going to sin because we are all just sinners saved by grace. ( that particular statement would fall more in the southern baptist camp) I don’t see it that way. I believe that this is a misunderstanding of redemptive provision and redemptive application. Provisional yes all sins have been atomed for in the death and resurrection of Christ. But that does you no good unless sin is confessed and forsaken. Also I do not believe that if you have some unknown sin that you have not confessed you will go to hell. However I see a great danger in pressing this doctrine to its furthest conclusion which is once in grace I’m always in grace, all sins are covered even my future ones. While I am not saying that you or many others take it to this extreme I assure you many do. It’s my opinion that upon accepting Christ my sins are forgiven past and present. However any sins I commit in the future of which I am aware of not a sin of omission or something that I’m not aware of, needs to be confessed and turned away from. I believe that we can be cleansed of all sin. 1 John 1:9 says we can. However I don’t not feel we are ever at a place of freedom from all temptation or have some super human inability to sin. But temptation is not sin, Adam was tempted in a perfect state, Jesus was tempted. However to me as a Wesleyan sanctification or holiness is a return to the freedom that Adam once enjoyed. He was free to fellowship with God and choose obedience. I believe faith worthy by love and the more of a gods love that reigns in our heart the stronger we are to resist sin and live righteous and holy in the present world as Paul said in Titus 2:14. Well I could go on and on but I’ll stop. God bless you my brother and it was great chatting with you.

        • T.Heim says

          Hi John,

          I was raised (from birth to mid-teens) in a non-denominational pentecostal church (heavy on “gifts of the spirit in operation), which was definitely fundamentalist (by both of our definitions, i.e. inerrancy, literal interpretation, young earth, no drinking, smoking, dancing, card playing, make-up, etc). From mid-teens to early 20’s, I was involved with a non-denominational (but affiliated with Open Bible Standard Churches) pentecostal (charismatic) church that was definitely not cessationist, but the operation of the gifts of the Spirit was not encouraged in church services! I relocated to the west coast from the midwest, and didn’t really get involved with any church, just hopped around for a while until I stopped going altogether. I went through a period of questioning everything, took a lot of “religion” classes in college, and basically ignored God for several years. Currently, I’m a member of a Presbyterian Church (PCA-the “conservative” branch). It’s definitely reformed (Calvinist), although at the time I joined, I didn’t know what “Calvinism” was! I’ve always been very interested in theology, religious studies, etc. I’m related to a well-known Arminian theologian. He has a great blog, which I read regularly, and learn a great deal from. My “definition” of fundamentalist came from him, although I should clarify that it wasn’t a complete definition….he would agree (as I do) that fundamentalism includes inerrancy, narrow & literal interpretation, and a long list of “thou shalts” and/or “thou shalt nots” as essential to salvation. As far as my personal theology goes, I’m definitely not a 5-point Calvinist. I believe in prevenient grace, rather than irresistible grace (the “I” in TULIP). I take the approach that it’s as important to know as much about what I don’t believe as I know about what I do believe, keeping in mind that I could be wrong! I don’t understand people who approach the vast subject of God (who they believe is omniscient, omnipotent etc.) and think they possess complete and accurate knowledge of Him and His Ways! I expect to grow in knowledge of Him until “we know as we are known!” I just read a great book by Austin Fischer called “Young, Restless and No Longer Reformed!” I love Fischer’s humility of spirit as he takes the reader through his journey of examined faith.

    • T.Heim says

      I couldn’t reply to your post either….don’t know why! Thanks for your last post…I appreciate it! It’s hard to end the conversation sometimes! :>) I take you points, clearly! I haven’t read anything by Prince, and according to the quote you gave, I would have to question some of his doctrine as well. And I am surprised that he believes it to be revelation, and the same year as Swaggart! Strange! Perhaps by revelation, he means that it was an “ah ha moment” when a light-bulb comes on. I could buy that…meaning his understanding of “grace” and the atonement became clearer. Who knows! Swaggart does go much further, even relating a word for word conversation, etc. Prince is definitely not as arrogant, but I have heard the same questions raised from many other credible sources as well. This is why I think it’s so important not to be a “personality” follower, and isolate into a sole ministry.

      I hear what you’re saying about sin and forgiveness, past, present and future. I’m just not sure. Scripture can be interpreted to support or reject “eternal security.” I would never be so cavalier as to think I could live an un-biblical, indiscriminate life and still make it to heaven, but on the other hand, I don’t think we can live a life of “freedom” in Christ, without “condemnation” (Romans 8:1), and constantly be worried about unconfessed sin! Can an individual be “saved” and struggle with an addiction problem? Is an alcoholic “lost” when they relapse or are actively drinking, and only be “saved” when they’re sober? The Swaggart’s would say they are lost (of course they believe merely drinking alcohol is a sin). Or, a Christian couple having sex before marriage (let’s say they’re engaged)? Or, here’s an interesting one: What about Christians who divorce AND remarry? The Bible clearly teaches that, even if you could argue for a divorce “exception” for adultery or “hardness of heart,” remarriage is forbidden (it’s adultery-as long as the divorced spouse is living). So, aren’t those who remarry (or a single person who marries the divorced person) “living in” adultery? This sin is so common that most Christians don’t view it as sin anymore. And churches, Christians, ministries will overlook this sin, allow these adulterers to serve in leadership positions, some even pastor churches! And, one of the sad truths is that we have taken a stand against homosexual marriage by citing the Biblical prohibitions for it, YET we look the other way when it comes to adultery! This looks bad. It’s a double standard, and makes us look like we are just discriminating against homosexuals, rather than a true desire to adhere to God’s plan for marriage! If we believe that the Christian couple who commits adultery through remarriage can ask and be forgiven while continuing to live in adultery, then why can that NOT be true for a same-sex, monogamous couple? There was a recent article quoting Kirstin Power’s, a commentator for Fox News, stance on gay marriage (she recently “came out” as a convert to Christianity). Her position is that she believes the church WILL eventually accept same-sex, monogamous couples for marriage in the church, just as we have accepted adultery by divorce/remarriage! I thought she made a brilliant point! What was interesting was the over 2700 comments following the article…very eye-opening, and disappointing from my perspective, as the self-described “Christians” who were quoting scripture all over the place presented themselves in such a hateful, angry, ugly way! Most of them completely missed the point Power’s made!

      I guess I still have a lot of questions about the “sin nature” and sinning after salvation. It seems like the non-Calvinist view makes it seem worse for the believer “after” they’re saved. It seems like there is more judgment on the Christian, more “worry” about one’s status before God. It makes it seem more like Catholicism, that one needs to go to confession and can never be “sure” they are going to heaven! I think that doctrine is harmful! But, pure Calvinism (thinking you can sin any way and still be saved) doesn’t seem correct either. One thing that really bothers me (no matter who does it) is saying who definitely IS or IS NOT, or WAS NOT saved! The Swaggarts are so guilty of this…they even boldly name Old and New Testament characters and say whether or not they died saved or lost! I just think it’s so incredible that anyone would make a claim like that, as they are saying they KNOW someone’s heart at the time of death!

      If you have time for any more thoughts, I would definitely be interested, esp. on the adultery vs. homosexual relationships. Thanks!

      • John says

        Ill be glad to share my thoughts, it will probably be quite rather long and I have not had time to sit down and do it yet.

          • John says

            The questions you raised are some very difficult ones to nail down. First Ill state right up from that I do not profess to have every solution. However I do believe scripture gives examples where divorce is not sin. In Matthew 19:9 Jesus says that the exception is sexual immorality from a spouse. In 1 Corinthians 7:12-15 it seems Paul says that if you have a spouse that is not a believer then you need to stay with them if at all possible, but If they depart from you then ” A brother or a sister is not in bondage in such cases”. So it seems to me there are 2 biblical cases where you can be divorced and free to remarry. Certainly some could debate the second reason that I have cited but the case of a unfaithful spouse is not debatable in my opinion.

            So according to scripture it is my opinion that any divorce that falls outside these biblical grounds is divorce that should not be tolerated in the church so far as Ministers are concerned. That leaves the question what about the person that commits adultery and leaves his wife and marries another woman only to come under conviction for his sin some years later and repent and dedicate his life back to Christ. Can this person be forgiven? In my opinion the nature of Grace would have to say yes, I can’t think that the man would not be able to be forgiven. So what about his first wife? Now that he has repented he must feel sorrow for his unfaithfulness and wouldn’t this affect his new marriage? In short yes, and all I can say is that sin always has consequence even if later we come to repentance and receive forgiveness the consequences of our sin are still present, God does not magically wipe these away. David is an example of this, he repented for his adultery and it is obvious that it was sincere. Psalm 51 is Davids prayer for forgiveness and restoration. God had mercy on David and forgave him but David lived with consequences of that sin the rest of his life. 11 SAMUEL 12:10 States that because of the sin the sword would never depart from his house. So while I can’t reconcile everything I think that it has to depend on the heart and repentance of an individual. That being said Ministers that directly violate this biblical order and leave their wife to remarry, I personally don’t believe they should be in church leadership. Randy and Paula white are examples of this, they worked together as associates at a church in washington DC. They had an affair and left their respective partners and married each other. They left the denomination that they were in and went independent and started a church in Tampa. Things went well for a while but then they too divorced for no stated reason and have again caused reproach and confusion on the Body of Christ. Can they still be forgiven and make heaven their home? I believe so but I would not want them to ever Pastor again after an established history of Marital unfaithfulness. One thing that is certain is that Jesus takes marriage very seriously and we should take marriage vowels seriously and strive to keep a healthy marriage. I have had some people try to Justify divorce by saying it was a mistake and i don’t think it was Gods will for me to marry them and now I want out. My response is, if it was not Gods will on your way down the aisle then it was when you said your vows and came back up.

            Now as far as homosexuality. First off how wonderful that Mrs. Powers says that she has given her life to Christ. One thing I have to keep mind is that people come to Christ from all different walks of life and Mrs. Powers was an atheist and extremely liberal so I would not expect her to turn into a christian that is culturally like many southern Christians, such as give me Guns, and God and tell the government to get out. That being said Im not really going to try and interpret what Mrs. Powers was trying to say concerning homosexuality. I would hope that she is not stating that God is ok with homosexuality and therefore eventually the church will catch up and be ok with it as well. I understand the church has muddied the line on divorce and that there is much sin that is ignored in this day in time. However in my view these are unbiblical compromise that needs to be called to repentance. It is not grounds to Justify further sin such as homosexuality.
            The bible is clear that Homosexuality is sin. Romans 1:24-27 is an example of this however there are many other examples of which I will not take the time to expound upon. So the idea that 2 people can have a monogamous Homosexual lifestyle and be ok because the church has overlooked adulterous relationships that have resulted in marriage is unbiblical. As to the question of people that have divorced and remarried I have to leave their should in the hands of the Judge, his word is clear on marriage but as to if they return to christ and find forgiveness only the Lord really knows. However marriage was instituted by God, so if a person left their wife and remarried and then later repented and got right with God then I have to think that they are now right with God as this is the nature of Grace. Does this mean God condoned their past divorce? No but God has not condoned any of our past sin, however I acknowledge the question of divorce and remarry is tougher than others. However to live in a homosexual lifestyle is all together and completely incompatible with scripture and true biblical christianity. Therefore there is no way for this individual to be right with God unless the repent and allow God to heal their perversion. So it is my stance that homosexuality is incompatible with christianity. Just as adulterers, fornicators and drunkards. The bible is clear that those who do such won’t enter Gods kingdom. The biggest problem I see in the relationship of the church to Homosexuality is that we either condemn them and are hateful to them or we totally compromise the scripture and tell them its ok. We should not fail to proclaim the truth of scripture but should do so in love. We should not try to drive homosexuals to christ by telling them how wicked they are, we should draw them to Christ through love and let God convict, touch and change their heart. The woman at the well is a beautiful example. Jesus did not approve of the lifestyle that she lived but he did not condemn her, he lovingly exposed her sin and her eyes were opened.

            Lastly as to sinning after salvation. Here is my stance on sinning after salvation. Can we sin after salvation? Yes. Do we? Yes. When we repent does God forgive us? yes. We have a standing in christ which is justification, but maturity and sanctification in many cases takes time. Do we have to sin? I don’t believe so. In I john 1:9, he said if we confess our sin he will forgive and cleanse from ALL unrighteousness. In 2:1 he said little children I write into you that you sin not. So I believe Gods desire is to cleanse us from all sin, I thessolonians 5:23. May the God of peace sanctify you Wholly or entirely. Your Body soul and spirit. Wholeness for the whole man is what God wants. To reorder our affections and desires that are sinful and conform them to his holiness. Freedom in Jesus Christ. So if we sin, we ask forgiveness, this Is part of a life of continued repentance or turning from sin and turning to God. This is a very short and very condensed response. Ill be glad to discuss further but I have to run at the moment. God bless

          • T.Heim says

            I recopied this, as for some reason, it posted to James’ thread. I am not sure if you’ve seen it! I apologize if you’re getting this twice!

            Thank you so much! Excellent response(s)! I read your response to James as well. I agree with you completely regarding the peaks and pitfalls of “ecumenical” and on Church governance. I think people forget that the Bible doesn’t spell out everything, and not everything in the Bible is “prescriptive!” Some is just descriptive.

            I agree strongly with your last paragraph on sinning after salvation. I believe as we grow in the Lord, He reveals areas of our lives that are problematic/sinful and, as we surrender our will, we are changed, perfected, become more Christ-like. I think where many go wrong is the focus on “acts of sin” as in vices, moral/character failure, etc. But, becoming more Christ-like not only involves abstaining from sinful acts, but “acting” more like Christ…less selfishness, more giving, more self-sacrifice, less wasting our time on “things below” rather than on the Kindgom of God, and also, fully enjoying the beauty of life, God and His Creation. The Arminian theologian I mentioned earlier (my relative) recently wrote a multi-part blog series on “The Christian World-view” (including a: is there such a thing? b: if so, what is it? c: how does it differ with “confession of faith” etc). It was very interesting. One of the bullet points is: “the glory of God is the human fully alive!” I believe God’s desire is for us to exist is this perfect state: sinless, disease free, healthy and whole in mind, body, spirit, and in vibrant, unbroken, loving fellowship with God, enjoying Him completely! This relationship begins when we say Yes! to Jesus, and culminates at the resurrection, continuing for eternity! So, our “walk” with Christ on earth is the beginning of our eternal life, as we are changed from “glory to glory.” It’s not just about “not sinning.” It’s loving people like Jesus loved them…which I could argue is more difficult than abstaining from sin! Fundamentalists (like the Swaggarts) justify their “legalism” with the verse “Love not the world, neither the things of the world……” I’m sure you know how it goes. Their definition of the “world” is vices e.g. drinking alcohol, smoking, nightclubs, casinos, movie theaters, dances, etc. I think God meant loving the “values” of the world, e.g. power, greed, wealth, lust, pride, as satan is the prince of this world. We are to “value” the “kingdom of God” more than we value our personal “kingdom’ in this world. I think it’s sinful to strive after money and wealth, power, recognition, influence over people under the “cover” of preaching the gospel! I think it’s as sinful to eat poorly, not exercise, over exercise, fail to rest properly, etc, as it is to abuse alcohol or drugs, etc. I think it’s sinful to be MORE religiously diligent about church “attendance” than it is to be faithful to fulfilling your obligations to your family, or seeing that the needs of people around you are met, etc. In my experience, the less I focus on myself, the more time I have to “look for” and/or become aware of needs around me, and when I’m involved with meeting those needs, I have less time to get “involved” with sinful endeavors. The Holy Spirit within us guides us in the right “kingdom” direction. He empowers, provides wisdom, comforts, etc. Scripture tells us that we’ve been given the “armor of God,” and if we put it on, we can defeat what Satan brings against us. God has provided the “tools.” These are the tangible things that I wish Swaggart et al would preach/teach about, instead of saying “the cross, the cross, the cross! I wonder who they think their audience is? They try to sound like they are teaching a seminary class on a deep, theological topic. Swaggart said such on yesterday’s program, claiming “the message of the cross is so deep that it goes over the head of most pastors, most christians.” That’s why they had to keep saying it over and over, every day, until people “get it!” (whatever “IT” is). Anyway, enough on that…

            I would like to go back to your comments on adultery / homosexuality. The White’s are just one perfect example of un-Biblical remarriages and divorces! As you are probably aware, there are some theologians/pastors who don’t believe that Jesus was giving an “exception” for divorce, defining that reason as unfaithfulness of one partner. That “exception” only appears in one account (Matthew 19). Some this that the Greek word “porneia” can mean sexual immorality prior to the marriage, or during the betrothal period (the wife turns out not to be a virgin, so married under false pretenses). It does seem strange that Jesus would give an “excuse” for divorce, when, based on his teachings on forgiveness, redemption and grace, and God’s “hate” of divorce, it would be required (especially if both partners are christians) to forgive and reconcile (which is the case in many circumstances)! Violence, abuse would be much more “reasonable” reasons for a divorce “exception.” And the most common teaching that I’m aware of concerning Paul’s passage in Corinthians is that he was addressing the issue of couples who were already married before they became a Christian. The church was thinking that the believing spouse should divorce the unbelieving spouse to prevent being “unequally yoked.” Paul said no, if the unbelieving spouse wants to stay married, they should stay married. So, bottom line, the Bible is against divorce, and they may/may not be any exceptions. (The truth is, most marriages end for reasons other than adultery). However, if a divorce allowed, the couple is NOT released from the vows. Therefore, remarriage is out of the question (unless you remarry your spouse). Which means celibacy for life, or until one spouse dies! If Bible-believing Christians really believed this, don’t you think the end result would be fewer divorces? or perhaps more careful consideration with selecting a spouse? Would the marital problems be considered so horrible, if the individuals were facing life-long celibacy? I think that when the divorce rate among CHRISTIANS is no different than the rest of the population, we’re demonstrating just how “seriously” we actually take the Word of God. We have demonstrated that we are going to do what we want to do (hardness of heart), and even if by remarriage we commit adultery, well, God forgives, right? Yes He does! I certainly understand that “two wrongs don’t make a right.” Both homosexuality and adultery are sin. BUT, you appear to believe that one can be forgiven and one cannot. It appears that you believe that homosexual sin is “worse” than heterosexual sin. You said that we have to “leave it in the hands of the Lord.” So, if we don’t know what the Lord thinks of people living in adultery, how can we say we know what the Lord thinks of people living in a same-sex relationship? It is definitely “up to the Lord” so to speak, but I believe our doctrines, our behavior toward sinners has to be consistent! I mean, there is more to a homosexual couple’s relationship than just sex! Medical science can’t currently tell us exactly why /how this deviation occurs. There is much more going on here than just a “simple choice.” People are choosing a same-sex relationship because they are somehow being driven to it! When we think about our heterosexual desires, and how “natural” they are, isn’t it possible that homosexuals have this same “natural desire?’ We can’t get into each other’s heads to know what it’s like for the other, and sexuality is a very basic, and emotionally charged issue. I have personally been touched by divorce, remarriage and homosexuality within the lives of close family members. We are Christians, and know what the Bible teaches. But we also know and see how the “body of Christ” is dealing with these issues in practical terms. And there is a very clear message….there is “forgiveness, tolerance, grace and acceptance for adultery (heterosexual sin), but not for homosexual sin! Is it any wonder why the church has no credibility on this issue? The world doesn’t respect the church and what it has to say about marriage, because of the lack of respect we have for “God’s design” for marriage! It looks like we just don’t like homosexuals! I really believe that the “church” is being confronted by our own lax behavior. I have lived, worked and had friendships with many homosexuals. One couple has been together for 30+ years! They are sweet, decent, loving, caring, interesting people. Most of them aren’t believers, but they’re not likely to become believers when they see how hostile the church is toward their lifestyle, but how tolerant the church is toward heterosexual adulterers! And I can’t help but think that, if they did accept Christ, would Christ make them break up a 30 year relationship in order to “stop sinning?” If we think so, then the same would have to apply to an adulterous, 30 year heterosexual marriage. Otherwise, that is a double standard…hypocrisy…and wrong, in my opinion! If I can have a relationship with Jesus Christ, find forgiveness, be blessed, serve in the church, all as a remarried, divorced person, I can’t imagine that cannot be true for my family members who love God and are burdened with same-sex attraction. I’m not denying that a person with same-sex attraction cannot be “healed” or changed, and I think that a serious Christian (fully desiring to do the Will of God and follow Christ) would/should choose that path. It’s clear some of them do, but after years of “struggling,” will give up and enter a homosexual relationship. But, those who don’t, shouldn’t they be extended “grace” and “understanding” just like a heterosexual divorced person who cannot see themselves living without companionship and sex for the rest of their lives?

            As you said to James, life isn’t “black and white!” It’s messy! I know it easy, and many of us desire to live by absolute, concrete truth! It’s easy to say “that’s right, that’s wrong.” But, we’re dealing with imperfection, with complex human beings, with a fallen and sinful world, with people who have wide variations in weaknesses and abilities. The answers aren’t easy. But, I do know that, as Christians, we are to deal with everything in a loving, compassionate, understanding way, always considering how WE would like to be treated! I don’t expect you to have an “answer!” But, ever since I read the article about Power’s comments (actually, much further back than that…when it came to my attention that a dear loved one was gay), I have really been looking for answers, and I really didn’t like what I saw coming through the comments of “Christians” on that blog! This is a “hot” topic right now in the church, and I think we have dealt with it poorly.

            I don’t know what you think of Rick Joyner and Morningstar ministries (I think he’s a false prophet), but he has an association with a “faith healer/revivalist” named Todd Bentley. Bentley recently divorced his wife (they have 2 children), and married an “intern” from his ministry. This caused an uproar in the church (for which I’m grateful…at least some still hold to Biblical principles). Joyner posted a series of videos on his website documenting the “restoration process of Todd Bentley.” It’s totally ridiculous….Joyner and Bentley go on and on about how God hates divorce, THEY hate divorce, etc. Joyner even claims that “GOD IS DIVORCED.” (I guess because He “divorced” Israel). He claims that God and Israel will be “remarried” in the future, so somehow that’s how divorce and remarriage is justified! APOSTATE! Anyway, now that they went through these “hours and hours” of rehashing all the reasons for why he divorced (still didn’t justify the remarriage part), they said he’s “restored” and ready to minister again…along with the new, younger wife! I find it despicable! At the same time, of course, they speak out AGAINST gay marriage! I’ve seen videos of Bentley’s “miracle” revivals! They are crazy! In one, his wife claims she had a dream/vision where Oral Roberts came and spoke to her and prophetically revealed some things to her (totally anti-Biblical). In the middle of her story, she starts rapidly twisting her head back and forth, whipping her long hair back and forth violently! She gave no explanation why that happened. She kept going on with her story, then would start with the head/neck whipping thing….it looked like demon possession! Anyway, they are still going from city to city in the US holding their “revivals!” I guess he’s pretty well-known in “pentecostal” circles.

            I look forward to hearing from you whenever you have time. By the way, are you a pastor or seminary professor or teacher of some sort? You seem to be quite knowledgeable about Biblical issues. I’m a lay person, involved with the worship team and Bible studies etc. at my church. And I’m surrounded by theologians & pastors in my personal life! God Bless!

          • James says

            Aren’t there any christians out there reading this blog who will weigh in and earnestly contend for the faith? Stop sitting on the fence and stand ye as men!

  38. John says

    T. Helm,
    I can’t figure out why we can reply to some post and other we can’t so I’ll just post new down here at the bottom. First off you and James are having quite a conversation! I truly don’t want to be negative about James but I would suggest ending all conversations with him. He reads what he chooses inserts what he wants and refuses to evaluate the subject that being discussed and elects for diatribes against Rome. BTW if you read this James I am not in agreement with the Roman Catholic system, however I believe that in spite of erroneous doctrine and practice there are many Catholics that have found a relationship with Jesus and will be in heaven. Do I know how many? No possibly not even a large percentage in comparison to all that have lived but I would venture to say far more than you think.

    Alright first on the divorce subject, I personally believe that infidelity is biblical grounds for divorce. It is my belief that when Jesus was ask about why did Moses allow divorce and Jesus said because of hardness of heart he was then referring to situations where the woman was found not be be a virgin and the man them wanted to put her away. However I feel that infidelity after marriage is grounds for divorce if the offended partner feels they can not get over the situation. That being said I know we were discussing situations where a person divorced with no biblical grounds and remarried. You bring some interesting perspectives and while I will not change my position on Homosexuality I will say that divorce is taken way to lightly today. I believe one reason why divorce is so high among Christians is because we have a significant amount of nominal christianity today. People who are Christians in name only. However I do acknowledge that there are many true Christian people who have been through a divorce. I’m these cases I will just have to say that I can’t know with 100% certainty what The Lord will judge them for if they have divorced and remarried. If they truly repent and are already in another marriage is their soul damned because they are look at as living in continual adultery? It is my opinion and I will state my opinion that I’m those cases God forgives their sin of divorce and honors their new marriage. However are there many that are in the situation that continue going to church and never truly repent and will end up in hell? Probably that’s where I just have to let God be the judge because he is a just and righteous ruler. So my stance is that because Marriage is Gods order and family model if a person finds repentance and that is true repentance then in my mind it’d possible for God to honor that marriage. In the case of Homosexuals there is no way that they can find forgiveness because they are not turning from a lifestyle of sin. It’s like a drunkard saying I want to continue to be a drunk but have God forgive me while I continue to live in my sin. The bible is clear that true Christians don’t practice sinful living. 1 john 3:8-10. But I will absolutely admit that to divorce your wife or husband and remarry while the previous spouse is living is considered adultery as Jesus taught, so can the status of that marriage change in Gods eyes if one or both parties repent and recognize the wrong that they did and turn to God for redemption in the mess that they have made? I guess I’m the end I just can’t say. However I do feel strongly that you can not live a homosexual lifestyle and be right with God. I know and have known some people that are Gay and most of them are very nice. I don’t dislike gays at all, but I can’t approve of their lifestyle. And the same could and should be said of a heterosexual that live a life of fornication both are equally sinful lifestyles.

    As to Todd Bentley, my opinion is that they are a complete circus show. It baffles me that anyone would get involved with the things that take place in that crowd. I would have to agree they are apostates and it is sad that they use the label Pentecostal. While I am a Pentecostal I am growing increasingly indifferent to labels, because while myself and Todd Bentley could both be lumped under the label ” Pentecostal” we could not be on more opposite ends of the universe. The foolishness that takes place with them should be self explanatory to people yet some people are gullible enough to listen to what they have to say. He has no place being in ministry he has been caught living a sinful lifestyle and chances are he still is doing so.

    Your last paragraph ask if I was a minister. Yes I am I have been a pastor however I am currently an evangelist traveling through many different states and as far as education I have bother undergrad and seminary degrees in theology so I have studied it quite extensively at least compared to yup average church goer. However compared to the academics that have devoted their life to theological study I’m no where close. It is sad for me as a minister to see how most Christians has no understanding of theology and therefore have no idea what kind of framework they are being instructed in from some of their favorite TV preachers. But it is just part of the day and time which we live. God bless you T. Helm. I pray that The Lord Jesus Christ would draw you to heights of his love that you have never known. May the richest blessing of his beautiful grace that he so freely gives abound in your life. I pray that he answers questions that no man could fully settle in your mind and that he strengthens you and equips you for the journey ahead. Amen.

    • James says

      Yes John. End all conversation with me. As well as Father Helm. I clearly don’t know how to love as jesus loves. I believe I follow Jesus, not jesus. The church is totally apostate. When I return, will there be faith in the earth? You see, how you believe dictates your actions, world view, associations and fellowship to name a few. Your world view determines whether or not you believe Jesus is returning. If he’s not, then living in this world is the imperitive, with its incumbent associations. It is impossible for any Roman Catholic to enter into eternal life. Roman doctrine cannot lead anyone to Christ. All who have commented on this topic clearly have no concept of Romish supperstition, and how it has developed over the millenia. Again, I have no problem with Roman Catholics. They just can’t go to heaven. Hindus can’t either. Romans are as idolatrous and superstitious as Hindus. Hindus must repent of their sin and believe God raised Christ from the dead to be saved. Romans 10:9-10. Roman Catholics must do the same. Once saved, can a Hindu continue in their temple worship offering sacrifice to the idols? When one gets saved the old man is dead. Can I continue in sin, so grace can abound? God forbid! I feel no angst whatever against anyone I have conversed with whatsoever, but I won’t abide anyone claiming Christ, while promoting error. I prefer to earnestly contend for the faith. T Heim claims association with Presbyterians. What I have said aligns a lot closer with historical Presbyterianism than anything T Heim has stated. He would not even be allowed in a fellowship historically! The truth is the folk I have been conversing with are not my brethren. Pure and simple. I don’t class as such because we believe in two separate Christs. There is coming together. No meeting of minds. As for not answering all points, I have stated twice, this makes thrice, that I’m using a smart phone and the browser allowing feedback doesn’t show the comment I’m responding to. Some comments are quite lengthy so unless I’m taking notes I can’t remember all the points posed to me. Using a PC would solve this dilema however that facility is not available to me. Mocking me as not able to comprehend, or even being selective as to what answer, is a little ridiculous. I would point out T Heim doesn’t respond to all my points either. Not by half. Anyway, I’ll still comment continuously as required.

      • John says

        Thank you for you participation James your viewpoints are quite unique. You really should settle down on deciding who is going to hell who isn’t, you may just be surprised one day to find both I and T. helm have a relationship with Jesus. I actually agree with you that Catholics don’t get saved by following Catholic doctrine but they do read scripture and the Holy Spirit is able to draw people to salvation in that manner. I know I have broken my own suggestion about responding to you, but please don’t take it personal the only reason I say that is that you and I are not going to agree or share the same views so there is no point. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

        • James says

          Thank-you John. Your recognition the Romans aren’t saved through Roman doctrine is a quantum advance over what T Heim has alluded to in his posts. I remember one quote as “I know several Roman Catholics, and their nice people.” It was lame defence that Romans are christian to. Anyway, nice mature approach in gaining advantage in our correspondence. I even liked your marginal condescendance.

        • jo s says

          this is what I dont understand Jimmy says the lord revealed him to preach the Message of the Cross well why would God reveal something thats all ready been reaveled everyone thats a child oc God should know the message of the cross thats why I think he is scanning people because when he fell his church went down to nothing Jimmy aint no dummy he had to come up with something new well it aint new its the same thing he preached way back in the 70,80s but I guess some of these folks dont know what he did and when I look back at the old shows is all them people gonna be loss cause he didnt preach the right thing I listen to the music of everyone but Jimmy and Robin and i flip thre channels

    • T.Heim says

      Thank you! What a lovely blessing! Thanks for all your thoughtful and wise responses! Much appreciated! I will hold you and your ministry in prayer! May God bless and keep you in His grace and love!

      • James says

        Your feigned solidarity amuses me. You are two peas in a pod. Comparing themselves with themselves, they became fools! Pray for those who hate you and despitefully use you. Those pesky words in red!

  39. Dave says

    Does anyone know what the ministry’s succession plan is once Jimmy and Frances are gone?

    Donnie will be 60 this year. Assuming his parents remain active several more years, I can’t imagine Donnie becoming the new face of the ministry in his mid to late 60’s, so that leaves Gabriel. When you subtract Jimmy, Donnie, and Frances from everyday involvement, that leaves enormously big shoes for Gabriel to fill, and I don’t think any person could handle that task alone.

    Aside from that, I have a feeling a large part of the audience tunes in to hear Jimmy and I’m not sure Gabriel has the charm or charisma to fill that void. He comes across as too intense, or, for the lack of a better word, angry. That isn’t to say he doesn’t have some good preaching, but I’m not sure he has what it takes to sustain SBN for another thirty or forty years.

    • THeim says

      Which is a good thing, Dave! That network is a joke…an embarrassment! I truly don’t understand the people that donate to them to keep them on the air! Every day….no, correct that….every HOUR of every day, something totally ignorant or outrageous is said by one or more of them! I just attended the first day of the 3-day Celebrate Recovery west coast summit at Saddleback Church! There were over 3500 leaders there (the east summit was last month with as many people)! This program has been around for 23 years and is growing every year! Two days ago, Donnie Swaggart claimed that Celebrate Recovery is one of many “fads” in the church, but it has died out!! These people live in a parallel universe! Their ignorance is astounding.

      • James says

        Saddleback! Are you serious? Now the ducks are in a row. It all makes sense now. You ecumenical demonic verve. Your denominational fixation. Your love of man. Your tolerance of heresy in Rome, yet vitiolic intollerance of any challenge to you. The vile Cretan running that filth did a twelve month survey asking the community in that area what they thought a church should be. Many responses on doorsteps were given, such as “I don’t like old hymns!” “No preaching about sin!” “I don’t want to hear about blood, or resurrection, or redemption!” “I want a modern, contemporary church!” “I’m sick of the bible, tell me how to be a better person!” Then he gave their desires to them. Did you hear about sticking a fifty dollar note under the seat of every visitors’ chair? You are such a heretic. Nothing emenating from that egregious sin called “Saddleback” is of God! Nothing! I would rather suffer stranglings and death than enter that den of vipers!

        • T.Heim says

          James, You should refrain from commenting on things you know little to nothing about! I know firsthand what God is doing in and through that ministry! It is huge, reaching people from every walk of life, from President’s to residents of “crack alley!” I really cannot understand the small-mindedness of so many self-described Christians who get bent out of shape over methodology! We were created by a God who is creative, and He delights in our creativity! The methods of spreading the ONE TRUE GOSPEL MESSAGE are endless! So, those who wish to stand on the sidelines and criticize the methods are completely missing out on what God is doing throughout the world! Those who criticize all day long are finding themselves left out, alone and bitter! So, put away the critical spirit, get creative, and join in on the activities of our forever family!

          • James says

            Hello again follower of another jesus. You do have a very humanistic view on dealing with those to whom you oppose. I am on my computer now so can peruse all your glorious error at a glance. Hallelujah!!!! You state in your humanistic missive how little I understand about ‘things’. Well, I suppose I don’t spend as much time perusing that which I despise as you do. So perhaps the nitty gritty of Saddleback and others you worship for me is not as clear as Jimminy Cricket and other heretics you despise are to you. There is no criteria that I am aware of in the scriptures that demand I know all the intricacies of that which is the enemy of the gospel, but rather that I know the intricacies of the scriptures. You see you study to show yourself approved unto man, using man’s thought and man’s demonis. However, I do not. I study to show myself approved unto God. Rightly dividing the word of truth. Your ilk, inclusive of all ‘Christendom’ including Romish heresy, will kill those who proclaim sola scriptura believing they do God a service. This is your spirit. How do I know? It’s simple. You try to silence me. Instead of dealing with me as Christ dealt with error, through the scriptures, you are as those that silenced him. Through crucifixion. You see you have never corrected me scripturally. You have thrown some scripture around but when that failed to scare me off you left the scripture really quickly and resorted to your first love, man’s wisdom! You said in your last blog that you know of God’s work firsthand. Does what you’re seeing line up with scripture. You see Father Heim, reaching the crack whore or the white house whore means nothing unless the life that comes from these converts is as Christ. Holiness must follow. Man loves man’s glory. Comparing themselves withselves they became fools. Whatever El Presidentae you point to could easily be seen as a believer if they ever were. The news media would hate them as the spirit of anti-christ hates all of Christ in the world. If you were remotely spiritual you would know this. A holy life is the criteria. Christ is the example. If someone in power got saved, they would be disowned rapidly by their political parties because the exclusive nature of the gospel, ‘ye must be born again’, would cause them to question the acceptance of vile policies advocated by both false paradigms.My small mindedness is Christ’s. You must be reading a really diluted version of the scriptures that emaciates the truth to a confused jumble of lies and falsehoods. Or you are a Jesuit as I suspect. As for a plethora of ways to spread the ONE TRUE GOSPEL MESSAGE as you yelled at me, no there is not. It is through preaching only. The words’ presentation is of one type only. If another way, Youth Alive or some such brings people in then that doesn’t mean they’re saved. They’re just in the temple. As the scripture teaches, it is a godly, holy life that is pleasing to God, not the lying dribble you advocate on behalf of your father the devil. You do indeed wish to shut me up. I want you to keep on talking. That’s the gospel way. God’s word is powerful so I have no fear whatever of your, or anyone’s, words at all. I don’t want you to stop. You are easily countered with God’s truth. Does God really delight in ‘our’ creativity? That’s not scriptural at all. Where does the Word of God say such a thing. God delights in obedience not sacrifice! Again, if you were spiritual, you would know this. You say I am critical. What is it I use to critically analyze? You silly person! I use the scriptures. If something does not stand in scriptural light then it’s not me correcting you, it’s God through His word. You reject His word, you reject Him. The humanist will always vacillate towards that which is big. That which is big smacks of success. That which is small smacks of failure. This is the truth behind your fascination with Rome, Saddleback, et al. The scriptures be damned! As for ‘our forever family’, I would rather die. Give me a Roman rack for my back, just not a day in your error! I have left off till last answering your first criticism of me. You stated that I knew nothing of Saddleback. I first heard of Saddleback in 2006 when the hireling controlling the temple I was in leadership with started to promote this folly. I knew nothing of them so I listened intently to his sermons as they developed and realized that he was imitating the man running Saddle-sore. Well, I got to learn alot from this man in the following twelve months of their faith (structure, format and form). I listened intently and started to ask for scriptural basis for his statements. To his credit at first he tried. The scriptures used were vague to say the least. He finally gave up and simply stopped talking to me about the scripture and proceeded to spread lies about me to others in the deacon board to the point I was removed from any influence. Anyway, his spirit, and the spirit of dozens I have dealt with over the years of this lying ilk, is the same as you to a ‘T’. My understanding of Saddleback was from the inside of a partner in their vision, and no less complete than yours. When compared to scripture, they were woefully wanting. I am curious. Do you have any idea what the woman running this blog feels on this matter. I think her experiences are more aligned with mine, than yours. Food for thought. Say hi to the Prez for me!

    • James says

      T Heim spends soooooo much time watching the Swagglies yet hates them vehemently! When I realised how erroneous they were I threw away 200 plus sermons on tape, about 100 video tapes with about 20 or so dvds, 11 commentaries, 60 tape series (three to six tapes each), about 20 or so music tapes, about 10 or so assorted study volumes and an assortment of odd bods and pieces accumulated over around eight years of Swaggart worship. I still have around 60 vinyl records, and about 5 or so study volumes done by other men in his JSM business, some music cds and dvds and about 10 assorted books authored by Jimmy Christ himself. Father T Heim, by reading its posts, has never been an adherant of Jimminy Cricket, however self mutilates by absorbing itself it the JSM business errors. The scripture says to take heed what you hear. Perhaps Father Heim’s translation/interpretation says, “Hear all things, take heed of error.” Christ/Paul/Peter/……..you fill in the bible saint name……. never ever followed T Heim’s premise of absorption into heresy. I think it feeds a self-righteous spirit which I have found myself in when hearing error preached. Set our eyes on things above! Not on this earth!! Poor T Heim.

  40. Viola says

    I just want to thank everyone for sharing and exposing the deception of this ministry. All I can say is that I am left speechless. How long will The Lord allow such deceit!

    • James says

      In Deuteronomy 13 the LORD gives his reason for leaving heretics where they are. To try true believers. To see if we love him. John 14 shows if we love him, we will obey him. If anyone proclaims error against God, do we yield and follow the mass of deceived ones, through the fear of man or do we reprove the unfruitful works of darkness and show we love him. Believers show they are believers by believing the truth that Christ is the only way to eternal life. The only way not to be deceived into following another Jesus, a counterfeit faith, is by prayfully, and I mean prayfully reading scripture knowing that it is a private letter to you. Christ is the word – John 1. If you misinterpret the word then another Jesus presents itself. By prayfully reading the word, God’s Spirit then can direct you away from error (another Jesus and certain destruction) and keep you on the narrow path, into the gate called straight. Swaggart may have been a believer at some point. I don’t see God pleased now however. He’s not the only heretic on the take either. Beware those promoting Saddleback, Hinn and a plethora of other brands also. The trick is, read the word, trust it only. Respect leaders when they bless with their teaching, however compare, for your whole life, what they teach against God’s word. Men are frail and flawed, God is not! PRAISE GOD!!!

    • T.Heim says

      Viola, “How long the Lord allows this deception to continue depends on how long Christians who fail to exercise good judgment, or to use discernment (which is a gift of the Holy Spirit, by the way) and stop supporting ministries like this! It isn’t that the Swaggart’s are preaching blatantly false doctrine. They believe the orthodox Christian beliefs that we would all call “the essentials”, e.g. the Trinity, the Incarnation of the Son, Jesus being fully human, fully God, His death, burial, and bodily resurrection, and his physical return to earth! Christian orthodoxy concerning the man as God’s creation with a free will, sin nature through Adam, etc. Any person, church, denomination or preacher that agrees on these things is teaching orthodox Christianity. I believe the Swaggarts fail dramatically in hermeneutics and exegesis of all scripture! They believe heavily in the “TYPOLOGY” of many things in the Old Testament having specific meaning or lessons for the N.T. stories and characters. They fail at proper scriptural interpretation. They over-emphasize certain scriptures, books and characters of the Bible. Additionally, they hold much anger and resentment toward the Assembly of God and the entire Body of Christ who dared to hold Jimmy accountable for his sinful, out of control behavior! The hallmarks of their ministry is arrogance, criticism of all other ministries that don’t conform to the way they believe ministry should be done, and constant bragging about themselves, while elevating themselves to a place ABOVE everyone else in the entire Christian World…for example: Referring to Swaggart as “Mr. Pentecost”, Donny relaying a “vision” 3rd hand which showed his father (Jimmy) appearing in a 5-star general’s uniform, and the Lord telling the man having the vision, that “Jimmy is one of my GENERALS,” Dozens of “stories” of God speaking directly to Swaggart telling him how great he is going to be, that HE is going to be raised up to escort the Lord in at his second coming, etc. etc. Another on was during IYC, where Donnie introduced Gabriel as “Americas Youth Pastor!!” (Seriously? They obviously aren’t aware of the thousands of large churches/youth programs throughout the U.S.) These “stories” happen, without fail, at least once a day, but more likely, it’s every program! The last thing that is problematic is the general ignorance of the leaders as evidenced by the statements made concerning science, history, psychology, psychiatry, self-help groups, 12-step groups, drug rehabilitation treatment or ANy behaviour that requires counseling, medication, treatment, etc. They also have a perverted sense of what sin is, what happens to the sin nature after being born again, the role of the Holy Spirit in every believer’s life, and their over-emphasis on “speaking in Tongues” as the necessary initial evidence of Baptism in the Holy Spirit. They under-emphasize, in fact ignore, the fruits of the Spirit that definitely will be evident in a born-again person’s life, and the fact that the Holy Spirit already fills and empowers every believer.

      They are locked into pentecostal fundamentalism of 75+ year ago, or so. Because they are so narrowly focused, they can’t see their own bondage, are unaware of the great work that God is doing throughout the world through the Body of Christ, whether it be in the denominational world, the emerging church, independent churches, etc. They love to attack all the ministries that are large and influential in scope, and accomplishing great things for God!

      So, the bottom line is they need prayer that they will be convicted,enlightened, become more loving and accepting of the whole body of Christ. I also pray that Jimmy remove himself, humble himself, start telling the truth and start being transparent about his hurts, hangups and habits, and allow for transparency regarding his church ministry, finances and fundraising, etc. No Christian should give them another dime until that happens! Jimmy DESPERATELY needs to go though a Celebrate Recovery 12-step progam! As I’m sure many in that congregation and the leadership would drastically benefit! The unhealthy church could change into one that demonstrates the freedom that should be found in Christ, relief from bondage, healthy relationships with their families and with each other! If change doesn’t happen, I believe the next great “fall” or scandal will be right around the corner! And the Body of Christ does NOT need this! As long as a person sees the current teaching and behavior continuing on, I would withhold financial support, discourage other’s from supporting financial or by listening, send letters and emails questioning the things you hear or pointing our their error or factually incorrect statements! They won’t ever acknowledge them, but at least they will be seen, and they will know that many parts of the Body of Christ disagrees with them and are concerned about their false teaching!!

    • James says

      Hi Viola, God has allowed the demon of Rome to last as it has and Swaggart and all other erroneous types are nothing compared to that world swallowing devil! So God will leave Swaggart and others so true believers can be refined. The word of God will guide and teach you if you allow it to. God bless you.

  41. Harryc657 says

    Crap… I will hate it if these reports are true because my parents and I donate to JSM!

    If there is harassment and mistreatment; you need to gather as many victims as you can and report it. Media outlits like CNN and MSN will be more than happy to do a story on them. If word can get out about this, it’ll be a kick in the nuts for them because their income and ministry relies on donations from believers like us.

    You need evidence and witnesses; this simple blog won’t be enough to convince people. As I said, I hope this is wrong and your just a whiny employee that has been fired for whatever reasons and victimizing yourself… But if my fears are true, then I pray that you will gather the courage and strength to gather these victims and expose them.

    • T.Heim says

      My question to you is WHY you and your family donate to this ministry! Have you seen even ONE financial statement defining the expenses of the ministry, the salaries paid to their staff, the number if Bibles actually sent after the Biblethons, etc., etc? You’ve been lied to at least twice, very publicly! We are commanded to be good stewards of our money! Does the US really need another Christian TV network? The U S is saturated with the gospel. We don’t need more preaching and/or Christian entertainment! We need to meet people’s needs…..be “the good Samaritan” to people in need all around us.

      • Jo-Ann says

        @T. Helm I so agree with you on this ( We need to meet people’s needs…..be “the good Samaritan” to people in need all around us.) Isn’t this what Jesus commanded us to do for one another? Isn’t this what Christianity is all about?
        I could never understand why these televangelists are always asking for money? Money for this, money for that.. I mean seriously if you cannot afford to be on television and pay television time yourself, then don’t be on television.. it is that simple, as soon as they get some air time and have a following, their goes that asking for money.. (Become a partner) enough is enough!!

  42. James says

    Hi there. I’m not sure by your post whether you are a guenuin person or a Swaggart schill. The psychology of a web search that brings one here is either in a positive or negative sense. You love what the Swagglies do, or you despise it. You seem somewhat indescisive hence my schill observation. You see, if I had loved ones involved in this Swagman folly and information alerting me to their possible nefarius methods and manipulative tactics alighted my door, I would tend to table the information to them and allow them to work out their own salvation in fear and trembling. As for your assertion that all evidence be taken with witnesses to some foolhardy television networks I can’t help but feel your submission is naive bordering of farcity. You may not realize, but TV networks actually start with the rumour, then investigate, then publicize. The irony is, it has already been done, multiple times in news bulletins, current affairs shows, full documentaries and magazine and book form. Amazon will have books available that use witness accounts as you so crave. That horse has already been flogged, and it’s now dead. The way to deal with negative publicity in a cult is easy. Ignore it as seen from the perspective of the world hence you are seen as Christ like, turning the other cheek. From within is damage control by using phrases such as “the foolish things of the world are used to confound the wise” or ” think it not strange the world hates you, for they hated Christ”, ” if we were doing nothing, Satan would not be attacking us.” If handled correctly, attacks from those without will cause the devoted ranks to close, while those without will begrudgingly respect you for not retaliating in like manner. There is retaliation however. Quite powerful, and from a christianzed playbook. Such as, in the middle of a sermon, several weeks after the attack so by that time would see your adversary having exhausted his barbs (accusations). You would stop mid-sentence, right at the point when you have excitedly raised your voice, guaranteeing total attention, then say “I feel the Lord would have me pray for ……….name secondary or third tier attacker……. I feel the Lord wants this fellowship, and those at home, to pray for ………. name of person again………. The reason is so we don’t harden our hearts against them. They’re lost and need salvation. They are tools of the enemy, naive and unsaved. Let us all pray. Heavenly Father, deal mercifully with……….. show him great mercy oh God, stay your judging hand I pray. Show him his great folly oh Lord and how close to destruction he is. Heal his body of all sickness, and Lord ( next part spoken at 70% volume by speaker) GET HIM SAVED!!!!!! So by this time the church group, and tv audience, are just about in awe of this prayful man who when reviled, reviled not again. The difference between a real witness of Christ, and a hireling/false apostle is the real christian has an audience of one, God! His desire is the praise of God alone. The false witness prays his alms before men for the praises of men are his desire! The reason a lower end attacker is “prayed for” is simple. When you watch two untrained people fight, they throw haymakers. Their senses are overwhelmed, and they throw punches at the head of their opponent and mostly miss. If they connect it’s never cleanly, their hand is injured and the opponent sensing injury redoubles their efforts. A trained proponent will instead strike the body hard and fast and stay mobile. The opponents strikes are always at the head, missing or glancing, while the patient trained fighter wears down the other man. The point is, don’t strike the head until your opponent is on his knees, because you have been attacking them, and then one or two well placed disciplined strikes knocks out your enemy. The people who attack are never seen as individuals. The whole attack is dealt with as one entity. The people as parts of the whole opponent. The scriptures in 1 Corinthians 13 teaches this principle as believers being a part of one homogenous body. I could go on. In short, tell your loved ones. You may need to buy several books and choose the ones written by guenuine folk, not cranky ex-church members. Anyway. God bless. James.

    • T.Heim says

      James, I can’t tell what your point is! It’s useless to beat a dead horse! There is nothing new in Swaggarts past or present ministry/behavior.

  43. James says

    I did actually say this in my post. It’s a nasty habit of yours, Father Heim, to part read a post and respond from half a picture. I actually used the term “dead horse” in my post in the same context as you did after me. A schill is someone who is a plant in an opponents camp for the direct purpose of mis-directing their attack. A voice to confuse, and divide to weaken the opposition. It is a Jesuits most effective weapon. The secret services of nations use this ALL the time when movements unfriendly to government policy gain a large enough following. The tenor of that man’s post lead me to believe he was disingenuise. Nice to hear from you again. Although your bigotry will always mean we are in opposition. Now I’ll read your other post!

  44. James says

    The only exception I would take to this post is “saturation of the gospel”. The scripture shows clearly, right through early Acts specifically, how when The Gospel was preached, miracles took place, people were saved (not some wrote verbalised mantra – but a holy obedient scriptural life) and the surrounding population feared God although as then unsaved. The stand out feature of early acts was the judgement of Ananias ans Sapphira. When God is in strong prescence due to fervent love of, and obedience to, the truth then his tollerance of lying to the Holy Ghost is nil. When God judges it’s never in a corner. Some have claimed God is judging the same today. That’s error. When God judges it is always measured but very public so all will fear and the damage is minimal. Such is his mercy. Maximum effect for minimal cost. Ezekiel 18 shows God will judge the wicked (Israel was the church of the day) but he does so reticently and gains no pleasure. Any of God’s judgements gained notoriety and were noticed by all Israel and the surrounding nations. My point is, thete is no gospel in the US today. None. Individuals preach and are immediately condemned and quashed by all churches. All denomination have signed none evangelization pacts with the whore of Rome which immediately relegates ALL preaching to nothing more than a Tony Robbins hype type message. A self help nothing leading to no where. Where’s the holiness? Where’s the fervour for God’s word? Where’s the care and burden for the brethren? Saturation? Poly-Unsaturated!

    • T.Heim says

      It’s too bad that you can’t seem to find the churches where the gospel is being preached, the bretheran challenged and ministered to, the communities being served by dedicated Christ-followers! They do exist, God is doing wonderful works building his kingdom, and blessing and allowing us to be a part of it! I don’t know what kind of God you serve, but you see a God that I don’t see, and frankly, wouldn’t be compelled to follow! I feel bad for you…there is no joy, no peace, no excitement in your words…just gloom, doom, depressing hopelessness. I hope you will find the true Jesus Christ, and have the kind of relationship He would love to have with you!

  45. James says

    You silly person. You have directed this type of follyful attack upon me previously with equally as ignorant assertions. I have the same joy and peace that Christ had when crucified on the cross! You might,and I mean might, remember the s ripture “pick up your cross and follow me daily.” Question: Did Jesus have a smile on his face when the nails were being forcefully driven into his wrists? Question: “Did he have peace from The Father when this and subsequent events were occuring? Question: Do you remember the next part of that verse? Oh debunking your lying humanistic evil infused gospel of demons is becoming easier and easier. You keep repeating the same lies! We’ll talk again in another month when you finish licking your wounds. I would say God bless, however it is unscriptural to wish God speed to a heathen because God would judge me as partaking in your evil! Good- bye Father Heim.

  46. Anastasjia says

    I just started watching SONL Channel and it’s on 24 hours a day to learn of the Pentecostal teachings and it’s very intriguing to a newcomer all the singing the powerful preaching which I really enjoy and the old crusades. I don’t particularly care for Frances and Friends show they do seem arrogant especially Donnie & Frances not very humble in my opinion. I also believe what the worker has to report. What reason would she have to lie? Mr. Swaggart is human I think every evangelist has hidden secrets. I used to follow Benny Hinn what a joker & fraud! I also read portions and excerpts of the Expositors bible and it made no sense so never bought it. I would be interested in knowing what his views are on Mormonism, Islam, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholicism on the DVDs but don’t want to invest in anything due to what I’ve read on this post. It’s hard to trust anyone nowadays.

    • James says

      Anastajia, trust Jesus alone. Read the word (bible) daily and ask the Father for the Holy Spirit to guide you. It is a lonely journey and true fellowship is nearly impossie to find. We are in the time of the end where deception is rife, and there are all manner of voices trying to deceive, who are themselves deceived. Ask Christ to bring true christians. A word of warning however. Anyone promoting a big church with lots of ‘believers’ is not of God. Christ was alone on the cross so the believers lot on this earth is one of bearing your own cross. Most who claim Christ begin the journey, however most fall away through persecution, the love of riches or the fear of man. Lonliness I find the most debilitating of all. Christ gives joy. Without which it is impossible to stand. If you wish to write again please do. God bless.

      • T. Heim says

        In response to Anastacia’s comment:

        The teaching on SBN is not “mainline” pentecostal! They are on the fringe with an incongruent, inconsistent and misguided interpretation of scripture. In fact, most of what appears on Christian TV is misguided or false.

        And James,
        I don’t understand the point of your comments. Human beings were created for community! The faith community is one of the great benefits of being part of the Body of Christ! Families are messy at times, but we need each other for support, accountability, etc.In order to bear one another’s burdens. Whether part of a large body or smaller body, the point is that we are to connect to serve one another, to welcome new believers into the grace of God, to care for each other!

        Perhaps another look at the New Testament church and the life of Jesus is in order.

        • James says

          I was keeping my comments minimalistic because a soul is searching for answers. I realized upon writing my comment on mega churches your pride couldn’t help itself but to respond in your typically caustic fashion. A re-read of my already stated comments over the previous year or so would debunk all, and I mean all, of your follyful self assertions and nefarious conclusions. A more prudent course would have been to encourage Anastasjia, however no one ever accused you of being prudent.

          • T. Heim says

            Oh, you’re THAT James! Silly me…I shan’t waste another moment of your time….

          • James says

            An honest mistake from an hon….., well, a person anyway. Funny, you graft your terse treatise laced with comments of New Tesament love and yet there is no evidenciary content as demonstration of your testimony. I’ve always found that those who proclaim a non-judgemental gospel laced with liberal tolerance are themselves thoroughly judgemental and utterly intollerant of those who disagree with them. I appreciate your apology for wasting my time, as.the scripture warns against the uselessness of correcting a fool in his folly! Until next time?

          • James says

            John? Wow! Your condescension to comment is humbling. I thought you had evaporated into the ether of super-spirituality. Nevertheless John, your debased style is more in keeping with your actual testimony. All this from the query of a seeking soul, Anastasjia. Anyone consider how this woman is taking this exchange. John, you didn’t mention this soul at all yet were no doubt alerted via email of this soul’s comment. Your wicked response is an apparently softer version of actual filthy speech. You are corrupt. I have known this by your limp responses previously, however am now a little clearer on the disposition of your haughty spirit. What sort of person throws off at another in such a fashion, yet claims Christ. Anastasjia, if you’re reading this, please accept my humblest appologies for unintentionally inciting this response from T Heim and John. If you are genuinly searching then don’t hold The Only Way (Jesus Christ) responsible for our comments. Keep prayerfully seeking his counsel. As for you John. My other cheek is turned. Again.

          • John says

            James, You’re not only an ass…you’re an arrogant ass. If you dislike my being plain spoken, too bad. You have no hesitation to refer to T. Heim as a “silly person”…but then you get all indignant when your behavior and attitude are called out. T. and I have come to know each other quite well…and while we haven’t always agreed on particular topics, she’s far from “silly”…while you are definitely an ass. I feel certain that if Anastasjiia will be able to discern who is “silly”…and who is an ass on her own. You’re just a modern-day Pharisee, wallowing in your own self-righteousness.

          • James says

            Thanks John. I have been put in my place. A google search of word meanings is, ‘silly’ – lacking common sense or judgement. ‘Ass’ – apart from the animal, Foolish and absurd. Well biblically foolish relates to a forgeting of God in a person’s actions so that part is wholly more offensive than what I said, absurd is perhaps on par with what I said. Semantics? Maybe. If you read context in my comments you would realize that my criticism stemmed from assertion to Anastasjia of the ungodly nature of mega-churches. I will admit to thinking of T Heim when writing that comment however concern for Anastasjia was my over-riding desire in penning an answer to her statement. The response was to Anastasjia alone, mentioning no one else. It was clear from Anastasjia’s comment she hadn’t read any previous comments except perhaps the moderators post at the top of the page. T Heim could not help herself but to comment and solely because her, and your, golden calf was assailed by me. Am I arrogant? I have noticed that arrogance is closely associated with self promotion. I sought The Lord’s help to root this out from the beginning of my christian walk and continue to this day. Have I self promoted? Well reading back in my posts I can’t find many referrences to me or my or I or we or any other words associated with self-righteousness/self-promotion. I’m happy to be corrected, even from an ass (think Balaam). As for the word ass, even though god google didn’t say it I have noticed that in popular culture the word meaning bottom is replaced with ass. No doubt to appease the censor for tv consumption however that is now becoming common place. That was where my criticism was directed. John, ‘abstain from even the appearance of evil, and ‘let no corrupt speech come from your lips’. If you won’t hear me (an ass – donkey), then hear God through his word.

      • John J says

        Hello James. I am the john that you spoke with months ago, you I and T Heim had some conversations. I see now you are arguing with another John, that is not me, I just wanted to clarify so now I have added an initial to my name so that I am not confused with the other gentleman

        • John J says

          Also it seems that this other John has inserted himself in the conversation as if he is me. He is not, James I have not been on her in moths, I know you remember the previous conversations we had, I am sorry that you are saying that you have always known that I was corrupt, I feel if you met me you would probably think different. However I sam not the man behind the keyboard calling you an ass or an ” arrogant ass” and if he is trying to pass himself off as me then he needs to stop. Again the J initial will differentiate the man that you have previously spoken with and the John that you are currently speaking with, and BTW I have no idea what you are referring to talking about the questioning soul, the email that this is connected to is not one that I use much anymore. Blessings THE REAL JOHN

          • James says

            Seriously John J, so much has been written between us I am a little lost as to your marrying my comments perhaps from several posts. I accept you are the John from months past. No worries. The blog has become a little stale. Perhaps we could spice things up with a debate. You choose the topic, and I’ll keep my comments to the scriptures. I’ll try real hard to be gentle too. Come on John, your choice of topic.

        • James says

          Thanks for the clarification John J. On the 28th of March this other John made the comment, “James you’re acting like a total ass.” My responses were to the crassness of his comment. As for arguing, well, putting forth a defence of clean speech and abstaining from any appearance of evil is appologetics. Which, as you would know, is litterally to defend. By saying I’m arguing is to paint me as an angry shotgun spraying vitriol in anyone’s direction who dare to disagree with me. I always thought that was healthy debate, even if harshly delivered, however disagreeable to you. I have angst against you, or T Heim for that matter. To say I argued is to perhaps marry me with your perception of those who disagee with you. None-the-less I will still apologetically respond as the situation arises. Thank-you John J.

          • James says

            No angst. I meant no angst. That will teach me for not proof reading. In 1629 the edition of the KJV unfortunately read in Exodus 20, “Thou shalt committ adultery.” Only one word missed. It altered the whole meaning of course. The king fined the printer almost to bankruptcy because of one word. That’s why the liscenced KJV is so revered among KJV purists and also why the 1629 edition is sought after among collectors. Anyway, I have NO angst against you or T Heim, John J. Thank-you.

  47. BK says

    It seems strange that Jimmy’s followers are willing to talk about how we should forgive him.Yet,God forgave Jim Bakker too,and I don’t see anyone talking about forgiving him.

    Another thing.Yes god is the judge of the Swaggarts.It is not our place to do so.It’s not the Swaggarts place to judge us either.That’s god’s place too.

    But,if a Baptist,Catholic,or any denomination judges the Swaggarts,their followers will reprimand us hard.Yet,let any of the Swaggarts judge us by saying we are not true Christians if we listen to secular music,go to a sports game,are Catholic,etc,his followers will defend his judgement of us,and him.This is WRONG!

    Judgement applies to all of us,including the Swaggarts.And,just as it’s not our place to judge them,it is not their place to judge us either!

    • James says

      Hello BK. As for judging, the standard is God’s word. In Matthew chapter 7, the Lord used the analogy of beam and mote. Simply stated, you can’t judge when you yourself are guilty of the same. First remove the beam from your eye, then you can remove the mote in your brother’s eye. That section of scripture is oft used to claim no one can judge, however it is the primary scripture which allows it. For instance, if I take umbrage to someone on this blog. Imagine what they state is unbiblical. My judgement of their statement is as best as possible lined up against scripture. Jesus’ statement in Matthew 7 demands I attend to myself first, assessing the quality of my own christian testimony first in that statement. I can’t rebuke for adultery, if I’m an adulterer. I can’t chastise a brother who steals, when I’m a thief! If I’m guilty of what I’m critical of another for, then there is a beam in my eye. The mote is in the brother’s eye for sure, however hypocrisy is hated of God because it is based in man’s righteousness, not God’s. As for the Swaggart’s, I would say that that ‘ministry’ is a business, pure and simple. They, like all TV “look at me” ministries, have found a niche market and are simply selling their wares to that market. Is what they say true, well BK, judge for yourself using the only trustworthy standard ever given. Which is God’s word. Look at the scriptures they quote. Check the context of the scripture ( what were the circumstances it was written under by the scripture writer), and apply it to the modern arena. Most importantly, be prayerful so The Holy Spirit can teach you to follow God’s truth so you can apply it to what you here from others. There is truth in some things the Swaggarts say, however there is much error also. Prayfully consider all things, and try the spirits. God bless.

    • says

      not our place to judge – typical Scripture twisting, Judge not according to appearances but judge (with) righteous judgement. your senses should have been trained in discerning good from evil but you are still immature. have no fellowship with the works of unrighteousness but rather EXPOSE THEM. (another translation is rebuke so it sounds like public rebuke.)

      Paul named names and told either Timothy or Titus to rebuke evil doers publicly so others would fear.

      As for telling a minister to step down, the Apostles though they spoke humbly as brothers had an authority Paul asked do they want him to come peacefully or with a rod of punishment?

      if someone who does certain things, that are reason for the believers to ostracize them “with such a one no not to eat” and that someone is a minister, yeah, obviously you
      kick them out or schism from them.

  48. BK says

    Oh,I do consider all things,and try the spirits.That’s a given.And that’s wy I brought up the point I did earlier.

    No offense if y’all don’t like country Music,but I do.And I am a Christian.I also hold to the opnion that there are many great Country singers who ARE Christians.But,the Swaggarts,have said on past telecasts (and I heard them say this before I stopped watching them) that the Country singers just think they are Christians,but they are not.(The Swaggarts have said this,not me.)Anyway,that’s just one example of the Swaggarts judging in my opnion.

    I do agree with you on removing the beam from your own eye first,before removing the beam from others eye’s.I have reffered to that bible verse myself over the years.In fact,that’s why I won’t tell anyone not to do wrong when I do wrong myself.I’m guilty of sin too.And I blame no one else for my sin but myself.I always ask God to forgive me when I do sin,and he does.

    Speaking of Country music,there is a song that’s Country that relates to the Matthew 7 bible verse we talked about.It’s called “The Lord Knows I’m Drinking” by Cal Smith.

    While I don’t drink personally,I love the song because it talks about that Matthew 7 bible verse,in a way.It talks about a hypocrite who goes in a bar,and tries to preach,telling others not to do wrong when she does wrong herself.And the song says in a story that she needs to pull the beam from her own eye before she can remove the beam from her own eye.

    Speaking for myself,that song inspires me NOT to be a hypocrite,and tell others not to do wrong when I do it myself.It further inspires me to take a look @ myself first.

    That’s just one example of how the Swaggarts judge,in myopnion.Another example is:The Swaggarts will say your not a Christian if your Catholic,Baptist,,Methodist,etc.It’s God’s place to tell what denomination to join,not our’s.If that Church is not right,God will tell that person to leave.He is the judge,not us or the Swaggart’s.And,I believe Catholic’s,Baptist,Methodist,Presybetian’s,ARE Christians.True Christian’s.

    I also believe there are good & bad in every denomination.The bad I give to Gd,and let him take care of them.

    God bless you too.

  49. BK says

    I ment to say the lady needs to pull the beam from her own eye before she can remove the beam from her brothers eye (reffering to the song I mentioned.).Typing error.Sorry.

  50. Valerie Whitmore says

    Did anyone watch last Sunday’s Services at SBN? I thought they were good. Lead by Bob Cornell the atmosphere was more relaxed, without a Swaggart in sight. After his message Bob invited members of the congregation to come forward if they felt that they were being held back by something in their lives and to let go of it. As members moved forward to the podium they were joined by one of the young JSM singers. It took some time for the camera to find him and he appeared to be in some distress. Despite all the bad things we read about JSM I believe it is still worth continuing to pray that the Ministry will eventually get back on track?

    • T. Heim says

      I saw some of it, and I didn’t notice that one of the singers went up for prayer. I’m sure there are sincere people in the congregation, and it’s certainly not wrong to pray for them!

      I wonder if anyone saw backstage with Donnie S. tonight? The entire half hour was Donnie showing a photo montage of himself, his kids and the senior Swaggarts (Jimmy and Frances)! He sat there and bragged about what a good parent he is and what a good job he and Debbie did raising them. Yet, it was so odd, and very noticeable that there was not one picture of his wife, Debbie in the entire photo montage! There is something very strange about her relationship to that family!! Very strange….

      • James says

        Debbie absolutely despises the ‘fame’ the ministry brings to her family. She is a very private person and one of the reasons for the strained marriage with Donnie was the focus placed upon the ministry because of the style of preaching Donnie was launching into in the early 2000’s. There were other stressors, however Donny copying his father’s tyrades against Rome, Word of Faith, et al was bringing the spotlight directly to Debbie and her three children. When it was Jimmy preaching those messages there was enough of a seperation between him, and Debbie to be tolerable. When her husband took the initiative and tried to mimic his father’s success on those controversial topics, that was the beginning of the end. There was always vigorous arguement about the vociforous style Jimmy employed in attacking errors however Donnie’s decision to employ the same tactics met with an ultimatum from Debbie. The marriage, or your current course. Well painfully so, they divorced with much accrimony. I believe Debbie, now remarried to Donnie, would have insisted on no images of her be included in Donnie’s montage. You see, she is very private.

        • T. Heim says


          Do you know them personally? I just wonder how you would know this. If what you say is accurate, then what you’ve described makes sense. However, it’s odd that she would have married into such a well-known family! Also, during the Swaggart crusades in the 80’s, the children were constantly paraded out on the stage by Jimmy. So, perhaps she was railroaded by the family.

          So, is it true that Donnie then married and divorced a psychologist before remarrying Debbie? What did the congregation think of all this?? Very strange….

          I saw a video on YouTube yesterday of Swaggart’s appearance on CNN’s “Crossfire” with Pat Buchanan and Tom Braden from 1984! Swaggart was in typical form…utterly disgusting! It was painfully embarrassing to watch. His ignorance and arrogance is so blatant that I cannot understand why ANYONE is attracted to that. He hasn’t changed a bit, either! Knowing what a hypocrite he was all those years, yet he had the nerve to look down on Pat and Tom while claiming spiritual superiority! It doesn’t get any worse than that for the reputation of Christians and the gospel! He has done great damage, and he is without humility and repentance! It’s shameful that he stands in the pulpit and broadcasts himself all over the world!

          I hope things are starting to catch up to them. They are into their 3rd day of their monthly fundraising, trying to get to over $4M, and they are barely over $2 million! Their donations have been slowing, with them falling short of their goals for several months now at wider margins!

          • James says

            I don’t know any of the Swaggart’s however around 2002 I conducted some business with a ministry official. I was an avid supporter and this man and I, over a year or so, talked quite extensively about ministry matters. We built up a raport and I asked where Debbie was. The website had been revamped and it was noticable that all photos and referrences of Debbie had been deleted. With a heavy heart he gave me some minor details which he elaborated on quite extensively. He was never a talebearer, nor a gossip and you must remember this was an accumulative account over well more than a year. There are many details I omitted of arguements etc. which are the fare of all families, some quite personal details also however my beef with the Swaggart’s is doctrinal so I will resist the urge to take a cheap shot. I don’t watch their current fare, and haven’t had ought to do with them for about seven years so I’m not able to comment on their efforts at fundraising. See, all that and not one nasty word to you. I must becoming soft!

          • James says

            As for Debbie knowingly marrying into a successful ministry, Donnie and Debbie married at a time when Jimmy Swaggart was a the largest radio ministry in the world. Television was a pipe dream for Jimmy Swaggart which he was to enquire about shortly after. The thing with radio is it’s anonymous unless your fame comes with a picture so Debbie was still anonymous at this point. Well, the rest is history as they say. The novelty of Jimmy Swaggart’s preaching style took off with television and fame for all ensued. Regrettably for Debbie.

  51. Nancy says

    What happened to Johnny Clarey??? I saw him preach in Georgia and talked with him at length. He was excited about God but there was a very deep sadness in him as he talked about JSM tho he said nothing negative and now I don’t see him anymore?????

  52. Valerie says

    Did anyone watch last Sunday’s service when Donnie was preaching. He explained in detail how when he was a boy his mother violently hit him around the head after he told her that he did not want to go to church any more. He explained how grateful he was to his mother for her discipline and from keeping him from going to hell. During a repeat 2011 Crossfire rally his son Gabriel described graphically during his sermon how his father dealt with him & his siblings by beating them. He brought with him the special tool which Donnie had made for this purpose and showed it to the young people. At the same time he did say he would not discipline his daughters in this way.

    At a more recent service Donnie discussed his method of disciplining his children saying he only had to do it once.

    At a 2013 Crossfire Service Associate Pastor Loren introduced his family in his usual flamboyant
    way. He also talked about beating his children. Unfortunately he did not seem too sure at first which of his children he did actually beat. He concluded by announcing it was Joseph. The camera caught the anger in Joseph’s face as he sat with his wife.

    Is it normal for Southerners to behave in this way towards their children. A smack is one thing but beating is surely illegal.

    Any thoughts on this?

    • T. Heim says

      Hi Valerie,

      I didn’t hear the specific descriptions that you heard, but I have heard both Jimmy and Donny speak about physical altercations within the family. There is a story that Jimmy hit Frances when they were early in their marriage. Nothing would surprise me regarding the Swaggart’s in particular…I’m sure their closets are FULL of very dark secrets! For people who claim to be so full of the Holy Spirit, and right in the middle of God’s Will…that everything they do and say is ordered by God, etc. they appear to be the unhappiest people on earth! Not only do they almost never smile, they look angry and bitter!

      One of the very odd situations is Donnie Swaggart’s marital status and relationship with is wife! He and Debbie divorced, and reportedly, Donnie married a divorced woman in his church who is rumored to be a psychologist (which I find hard to believe, based on the Swaggart’s disbelief in psychiatry and psychology). He divorced this woman and remarried Debbie. Now, Debbie is RARELY ever seen around the ministry. I don’t think she even attends the church. When a Christmas family photo was posted last year with Debbie in it, there were several comments by FWC people that they didn’t even know Donnie was married! Very Strange!

      Last week, Donnie said that he quit college (Louisiana Community College or State College–can’t remember which) because a gay student made a pass at him! He was very defensive about this saying, “I just didn’t want to put up with an environment like that!” A trans-gendered caller on the F&F show called Donnie a bigot for this, and Donnie got very mad and very defensive saying “I don’t have to put up with that!” I wonder, though, if he would have quit school if a female flirted with him, or made a pass at him? That would have been the question to ask him! Clearly, Donnie has a problem with homosexuality that goes beyond the Biblical prohibitions!

      The Swaggart’s and the Larson’s fit the stereotypical southern “hick”…..low intelligence, poorly educated (in fact, they devalue education), suspicious of, and ridicule of intellectualism, chauvinistic, etc.

      • James says

        There must have been more to it than some sodomite illiciting a filthy encounter with him. If that’s the case he would avoid going shopping or like activities. Unless there was a mutual attraction then most people wouldn’t approach another person and make a ‘pass’. That brings up my point. Most of the time people, men and women, only discuss those topics ‘distressing’ them because that’s what titilates them. A brother in Christ some years ago kept talking to me about homosexuality, specifically men, and I would respond scripturally pertaining to his comments. After some months I wrote to him to explain that a brother less disposed to love, and more to hurt, would takes his disposition and twist it to expose his desires which he is struggling with. Sometimes, though I don’t believe in this case, a person brings up this type of story to advertise to those in the know of a lustful desire. A pastor I knew went away for two weeks and his wife received a visit from a male parishioner. The parishioner told this woman that an unnamed female parishioner made a pass at him. This woman realised immediately his ploy and ordered him from the home. The deacons dealt with him that night and he confessed to attempting adultery with the pastor’s wife. If someone goes on and on about a sin, then pray for them fervently. Don’t interact with them if you’re alone. It may be you they’re targeting for sin.

        • Redeemed says

          THIS! I hear Donnie tell why he left LSU, and my mental response was “if you flee from a situation every time there’s a affront, you’ll withdraw from society. ” The Bible tells us to be in the world not of the world.

          • T.Heim says

            My response to Donnie’s story of why he left LSU (a gay person made a pass at him) is this: Would he have left LSU if a WOMAN had made a sexual advance toward him? Would he have left if people challenged his bizarre beliefs or picked on him for his attitude? The answer is likely “no” which indicates that his attitude toward homosexuals/homosexuality reveals his lack of personal development and maturity and that he misunderstands scripture and believes homosexual sin is worse than other sins, sexual or otherwise. His isolation from society (“the world”) left him incapable of handling an interaction like that He was “home-schooled,” is an only child and has lived his life under the shadow of his father and mother. To this day, he lives right next to his parents. He’s had a bizarre marital history, and the current status of his marriage is strange (Debbie is rarely seen in the church and has no visible part in the ministry). That entire family would likely be a psychologist’s nightmare!

    • James says

      My thoughts Proverbs 23:13-14. The word beat is evocative of ill disciplined thrashing to the point of unconscious stupor. This is the world’s extremist view íwhich suits those who hate God and wish to portray his ‘obedient’ servants as animals and thus God as a violent irrelevant bully. The truth is beat means to bring to submission through physical discipline. Sometimes a tap on the cheek with open hand that would only be strong enough to stun a fly is sufficient. Proverbs 20:30 speaks of “blueness of the wound” however this may not be related to children as much as it to discipline of youths via the stocks etc. The waywardness of a youth is too much for a father who only weakens with age. I’m mid 40’s and my eldest son is 17. He is at some point going to be stronger than me, if not already so this scripture calls for the discipline of the elders at the gate, as it were. A parents discipline of a young man isn’t physical as such, but corrective using God’s word. Physical discipline is godly, and God’s will, while the humanist state takes the role of God. Therefore parents are threatened, fined, jailed or in extreme circumstances have their God given children stolen from them by the God haters themselves. I am referring to christians now. Not the heathen. The believer must allow The Spirit of God to give balance to discipline, not their anger. The worldling rejects God’s word thus disciplining thieir children according to their will. Not God’s. As believers, obedience to God’s will is your lot. Not obedience to man’s godless, self serving laws. If man says illegal and God’s says legal, then to hades with man’s lying filthy laws. Obey God. You will suffer for this however. Man’s laws make you obedient to his laws contrary to your will. You WILL suffer for disobedience to man’s laws. I would rather obey God than man, however. If you love God, you will obey his commandments. This means homeschooling your children, and home churching your family. This is infinitly more difficult than allowing the anti-God state to educate those children God gave you to educate. All manner of excuses are of course available to the disobedient christian. However those who trust God will find a way.

  53. Valerie says

    Some time ago we were told on SBN that that Johnny Lee Clarey had passed away and his funeral was to taken place at JSM. I have just checked on the internet that he had died on 21st October 2014. You mention his deep sadness. I feel there is also a deep sadness over Living Waters as well. They rarely smile and there is little light in their eyes. Keep on praying.

    • T. Heim says

      Valerie and Nancy,

      Just a few weeks before Johnny Lee Clarey passed away suddenly of a heart attack, he abruptly disappeared from the panel on “Frances and Friends.” There were all kinds of questions posted all over JSM ministry website asking what happened to him, with no response! Finally, someone called in to the F&F show asking about him, and Donnie Swaggart said “sometimes we have to shake things up!” Johnny Lee put out a statement on his Facebook page asking people not to say anything bad about the Swaggarts, and that he considered Donnie “a good friend.” So, something clearly happened, but either side didn’t want to discuss it! I was really shocked when the news came out that Johnny Lee had died! He mentioned one time on the F&F program that he was on a quest to lose weight and improve his health because his doctor told him he was killing himself by being overweight and his lipids were very high, etc. I did wonder, though, it some issue with the Swaggarts put him under a great deal of stress which led to the heart attack. I have no way of knowing for sure. However, I never saw the funeral, nor did I ever hear ANY of the Swaggarts or affiliated ministers even mention his death from the pulpit, or speak about a memorial service! This is the TYPICAL “MO” with this ministry….LOTS of secrecy and paranoia!

  54. says

    ” Not all who say “Lord , Lord !” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven , but those who do THE WILL OF MY FATHER . “……….Jesus speaking .
    And further ……”” Depart from me , ye workers of iniquity , I never knew you !”
    When The workers of iniquity put up a defense , Jesus ignores it . These men are false workers in Christendom doing human good for gain and fame .
    When I have watched Jimmy Swaggart preach , I felt like I was watching one of the very best “used car salesmen” in the world, pitching a deal !
    Just because a man preaches Christ does not mean he is sincere in his love and obedience to Christ through The Holy Ghost . Satan knows Christ is the Savior .
    Anytime Christ is lifted up , He can draw all men to him , as The Word never returns void even if a charlatan
    preaches The Gospel . (ELMER GANTRY did the same )
    Jimmy Swaggart has a following ; people who want to believe that he is a real believer , but he is false , a shameful man who has never been BORN-AGAIN ! ……. MONEY , FAME , SELF-PROMOTION …his true mantra !
    Bonnie B. Hillman , Texas

    • James says

      Hi Bonnie. I can’t fault, at all, your critique. Nicely said. The greatest historical charlatan however is the whore of Rome. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 gives the reason why such aggregious error is allowed to remain by the Lord. As for killing the false prophet as cited in the referrence, obviously individual christians are not afforded the same authority as a citizen of national Israel so God’s sword, his word, is what is used to ‘kill’ the false testimony of the false prophet. However, these heretics are allowed to remain as a test by the Lord to see if the real believer will obey his word or that of a liar!

  55. Gideon Israel says

    Why don’t you guys attack TBN with equal intensity? They make way more money than Jimmy Swaggart. If you are going to make allegations like these please present more evidence than just one person’s statements.

    • Mishel says

      Because I didn’t work for TBN. I am speaking the truth about what I know. However, yes, I agree that they are every bit or more guilty than Jimmy Swaggart Ministries.

    • T.Heim says


      How about presenting evidence that the Swaggart’s are good stewards of the money they bring in? Can you prove their claims as to just how many countries their programming is available, what the real needs of the ministry are, etc. Do you know how much the Swaggarts are paid? If the ministry claims they need over $4 million every month, and they only bring in $3 million, how can they keep running those kind of deficits? Maybe they don’t really need even $3Million! Can you prove they actually deliver the number of bibles they claim? They claim they are giving 15,000 Bibles to pastors in Brazil! Brazil is not exactly a 3rd world country! Those numbers seem extremely high, as the denomination I belong to has about 5000 pastors in the entire United States!

      So, you are willing to support a man who tells you flat out after being caught for a second time with a prostitute that his behavior is none of your business? There’s a word for people who do things like this…FOOL!

      • James says

        I can’t fault your critique of JSM. Actually I’ve stated almost identical criticisms myself over the last year and a half. The only difference I would have with you T Heim is Matthew 5:22. It’s not a harsh criticism, just a friendly caution if indeed we are brethren. My understanding is that a believer can be foolish, that is operate for a time without thought for God or the consequences of his actions, however a believer cannot be a fool. It’s an oxymoron. Anyway, that’s it. Oh. One last thing. There are no comments on TBN or other ills assailing God’s body because that’s not the function of this page.It’s a little like complaining to McDonald’s because of the fried chicken at Kentucky! Anyway. That’s it.

        • T.Heim says

          Hi James,
          You’re probably right about my last comment…..Foolish acts are the product of ignorance. The live programming that has aired for the last 3 days since the “beg-a-thon” has contained such outrageous ignorance and error that it flabbergasts me that there could be more than 10 people who would value that programming enough to support it with their hard-earned money!! Frances & Friends has centered around depression and suicide, and is full of such ignorance, condemnation, fiction, horrible, guilt-laden advice and misapplied scripture! They put themselves forth as “experts” in any and every topic ever raised. Same with Jimmy’s programs (Message of the Cross and A Study in the Word). I gotta say that the definition of “FOOL” has to fit people who are so unaware of their own ignorance that they believe what they say is true! And those who participate with the Swaggarts are equally foolish/ignorant/arrogant….take your pick!–Carl Brown, Loren Larson, Jim Woolsey, Dave Smith, Bob Cornell, Mike Muzzerral, David Borg & Jim Nations! They’ve created such a tight bubble around that organization so they can remain unchallenged and create their own reality!

          TBN has its’ share of misguided/false ministers/teachers, but at least they have some good programming, some respected, humble, Biblical preachers who fear God. With the Swaggarts, it’s all about THEM. The ONLY thing they have that is unmatched by anyone is their ARROGANCE!

          • James says

            All true. However like all error it’s loud and noticable. There are many, at one point myself, who want the truth and feel secured by noise and arrogance masked as confidence. Swaggart is far less of a blot on Christ’s narrative than far more murderous and aggregious errors such as Rome’s folly. Swaggart simply hasn’t the scope of international intrigue and influence to obtain the appearance of respectability that the Romish folly has. Remember T Heim, let’s be consistent in our judgements as we strive to be in our scriptural interpretation. I believe 2 John is rather apropos at this juncture. Again, some minor criticism not intended to hurt nor hinder, merely cause to think.

          • T.Heim says

            I really don’t know that much about the Roman Catholic Church, but I’m willing to bet that there’s a big difference between the governance and hierarchy of the church and the parishioners, just as there is between our government and “the people.” The Catholic friends and family that I know personally are great people who love, respect and worship the Lord Jesus Christ. I do not have a problem with fellow Christians who have differing beliefs about the “non-essentials.” And, there are hypocrites in every ministry/church. It’s up to each of us to emulate Jesus teachings and the gospel to believers and non-believers alike. Scandal hurts all of us.

            I wouldn’t be so hard on the Swaggart ministry if there had been true repentance, humility and accountability! The Catholic Church is making very public efforts to correct wrongs of the past. And I think it is wise, and yes even pleasing to God, for protestants to reach out and build bridges with this very large part of the body of Christ! Love, reconciliation, grace and tolerance should be the hallmarks of brothers and sisters in Christ.

          • John J says

            I know many Roman Catholics and have pastured many former Catholics. I fully agree that their is a big difference between the average Catholic and the Catholic government. I also believe their are many Catholics that managed to find a relationship with Christ in the Catholic system. The bad thing is Catholics that truly know Christ do so somewhat in Spite of what the Catholic Church teaches them and not because of it. They do not teach or emphasize personal salvation. Every thing is obtained by means of the church. All grace is in the church, forgiveness is in the church. How do they explain believers outside the Catholic Church such as all Protestant believers? They have to affirm us with a wink and a Pat in the back because their teaching would say otherwise. It is also quite bad that they affirm Mary as co-redeemer

          • James says

            The problem with Roman Catholicism is not the people. Christ came to save people. This is a false arguement and somewhat of a strawman. Nice Mohammadans, nice Hindus ad nauseum are in abundance to. Nice atheists are there also. What about Voltaire. God hater extraordinaire. Nice man apparently. Humanist to a fault. Definately no believer. Actually spoke much against “The Nazarene” as he referred to the saviour. Not saved however.Just calling yourself christian does not a christian make. Roman Catholicism has never been christian, did not start as such, has never promoted such, has persecuted such, murdered such, built its empire on such. I won’t bother refuting or quoting to prove my point, instead I’ll ask for scripture to prove that Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by grace alone. Also, that if salvation is not taught in Romish doctrine then how is it scriptural to give money, raise children in, worship God in, and fellowship in an ungodly, unbiblical man made organization. Keep your impassioned arguements out. Only biblical truth allowed.

    • James says

      This is not a page dedicated to critiquing TBN. Perhaps you could start one. Along with the other dozen or so already pointing out TBN’S follies!

    • says

      I’m always looking for Christian round table discussions of current events and happened to see Francis & Friends about 2 years ago. I’d like to give my honest pro & con assessment here. 🙂

      My instant impression was shock at the unsmiling “fierce countenance” of Francis Swaggart. She has such a severe, angry expression on camera it’s hard to believe she isn’t an unpleasant person to know. I thought she must be a very unhappy woman and my opinion hasn’t changed in 2 years.

      Her son Donny appears to be equally angry and unapproachable.. His un-Christlike, histrionic demeanor on F&F has received so much criticism he is now telling viewers, eyes wide with hands held up dramatically in the air, “I don’t care if you don’t like me ….. write all the hateful emails you want …. knock yourself out”.

      I have no idea why Donny Swaggart is so full of rage but it really seems to be out of control. I’ve concluded that both he and his mother are poor ambassadors for Christ and should not be in church leadership positions.

      Another big concern about the F&F program is the abject legalism they espouse. Francis has come very close to saying that believers who take a drink of alcohol, don’t read the Bible daily, or don’t immediately confess every sin will go the Hell.

      She also coldly looked into the camera and declared that a believer who commits suicide “WILL go straight to Hell” no matter the reason ( and yes, I did hear her correctly).

      Occasionally the show is top-notch. Panel members John Rosenstern is great on Israel/Middle East events and Mike Muzzerol is a wonderful source of information on the cults . F&F also does a good job exposing Common Core and the Homosexual agenda with the help of excellent guests.

      One last observation. I still can’t figure out why Carl Browne and Jim Nations are there, but especially Nations. Apparently the role of both men is to act as parrots for the Swaggart gospel of legalism without offering any valuable input of their own. I’m sure both are good men who truly love God but their tenure on F&F is a sad and wasted way to serve Him imho.

      • Donald says

        Dear Barb. T
        Sadly but most likely they are paid well and the option of working at the local
        Target if they renounce their allegiance to Swaggart at their age is not too enticing!

  56. abb says

    I am saddened by these testimonies, but not shocked. My mom passed away a few months ago, and all she wanted to listen to was jsm. The music really uplifted her spirit, and we fully believe that she went home to be with the Lord. I was thinking about purchasing the expositors study bible, but never quite got around to it. Once I did some research and discovered that Christ’s words were not in red, a flag went up. Then when I discovered that no bible scholors worked on the bible with Jimmy Swaggart, it was a done deal for me. While I am not a kjv only person, this bible was biblically incorrect. So, I never purchased it for myself or anyone. There are many wolves in sheeps clothing out there, and the days are growing darker. Be prepared my brothers and sisters in Christ for the great falling away from sound doctrine, and from the Lord God Himself. God will explain His word fully to you. Study and seek Him for all truth for your life… sorry for all the church hurt…..God will heal and restore….God bless!

  57. says

    “Loren Larson has latched onto this because he truly thinks that Jimmy is an apostle ”

    interesting. I pay no attention to TV and radio preachers so if something is brewing I haven’t
    caught any little hints. But if the term “apostle” is in play, how long before he hooks up with
    the New Apostolic Reformation?

  58. Donald says

    I first encountered Jimmy Swaggart at the “crusade” in Madison Square Garden in Sept. of 1984.as a
    fairly new follower of Christ. The discovery in 1988 of his hidden life severely shocked and damaged
    the entire Penta-Charismatic movement as Pastors and leaders began to cast off restraint with their
    own battles. After witnessing the demise of the “renowned” Times Square Church in the late 80″s I
    thankfully followed the leading of the Holy Spirit away from this sect into the biblical doctrines that
    led to true and rare revivals!
    This man is a modern day Judas quite likely never regenerated by the Holy Spirit! A master manipulator
    blending in with true followers as Judas at the last supper! The eleven knew not that he was the son
    of perdition and as Esau wept and sought restoration to no avail the Spirit and gift of repentance had
    Jimmy Swaggart and his apostate offspring must be stopped from defrauding and destroying Christs
    true followers!

  59. Rick Prater says

    I am so thankful I found this website. My family and I watched the Jimmy Swaggart “Show” back in the 80’s when Jimmie fell from grace and his “Show” went down. My family and I were never more disappointed in one human being. We felt so betrayed and undermined, having put too much confidence in this man. After all how can such a man, supposedly filled with the “Holy Ghost”, and speaking with “Tongues” fall so far from grace. I believed that in Jimmie’s position of power to reach millions of people, he should have personally demonstrated in his own personal life and set the highest example of how Christians should live. But he done just the opposite. The life Jimmie has led has resulted in so much mass confusion and disgrace to the true work of the Lord. He is not true to himself, his family, sinners and Christians, and moreover, certainly not the Lord. And God is not the author of confusion. We should be able to discern a tree by the fruit it bears. We cannot hold hands with both the devil and the Lord. Furthermore, I do not believe the spirit that works in him or his family is of the Lord as evidenced by speaking in “Tongues” and being filled with the “Holy Ghost”. God himself said that He would not dwell in an “Unclean Temple”. And speaking of temple, the Lord in days past referred to this type of church ad people as, “A den of Thieves”. From what I gather the Swaggarts run the church like a business, and for profit only, as well as self gain. Their extravagant life style is further evidence and reflection that they do not live by the word of God. God offers everyone salvation, but does not owe or promise us a mansion to live in, a rolls royce to drive, a 3000,000 a year income, a big bank account, millionaire status, and especially at the expense of praying off the sick, poor, and elderly. Seems to me like the Swaggarts have already received their earthly payday/rewards, so God owes them nothing, and especially a Heavenly reward. God says such corruptness and filth can not enter the gates of Heaven. I personally believe the devil has a better place awaiting their coming, and for some of them it will not be long according to their elderly age. God further states that the “Love of money is the root of all evil”. I totally agree, especially when you add the love of power to the equation. God also, speaks of the “False Profits” in the latter days. Those days are here and have been for some time now. It appears that the false profit can be recognized by either, their love of sex, money, and power, or a combination of these. In my personal opinion, I believe God views the false profit as the worse kind of all sinners. They do more harm to true Christianity and the work of the Lord than any other sinner. I further believe they are children of Satan, and therefore are doing his work. And some people on here want to argue that Jimmy was forgiven. My question is, how do others know he was forgiven. And how many times does the Lord forgive the same intentional sin. From what I have observed, the Swaggart family continue to live in sin on a daily basis and without any regard for sins consequences. They must either believe they are above God or are inj denial all together. But, at any rate, they can deceive themselves, their family, and their congregation, but they will never deceive God. God has a ever seeing eye, and a ever hearing ear. God know all the deeds we done in the body while on earth weather good or bad. And most important, God knows the heart of everyman or woman. Everyone will have to stand before God on that great day of judgement. Unfortunately, God will say to the false profits, “Depart from me, I never knew you”. Mishel, I am very thankful for people like yourself, who are willing to come forth to expose the truth. Morevover, I think I truely understand what you went through and how you must feel. I went through a very similar experience a few years back at a secular workplace. Not everyone wanted to believe me either because my facts seems just too outrageous to be real or true. We live in such a fake world that often times people either cannot process the truth in their minds, or just simply do not want to accept the truth. But in the end, with the help of God, the truth in my situation did prevail. God will not leave us without a witness. I pray for you that in the end, the truth of your situation will prevail also. Just keep your trust in God only and after everything is said and done, you will be a winner either way. If others do not pay for their sins and wrong doings on this side of the grave, they most definately will on the other side of the grave. My best wishes.

    P.S….Maybe someday this could turn around into a great movie for the glory of God.

  60. Rick Prater says

    I forgot to make mention in my previous reply that According to my KJV Bible God says that Donnie Swaggart does not have the Biblical qualifications to be a preacher. As evreyone knows, Donnie has two living wives, or hopefully they are both still living. When he divorced his first wife he committed adultry with the second wife, and then, when he divorced his second wife he committed adultry with his first wife. This is double sin. It does Appears to me that both Donnie and his father Jimmy have re-written the Bible to justify themselves and their sin nature. God does speak strongly against those who add or take away from the Bible. They may change the wording of the Bible, but the meaning is still the same.

      • James says

        Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
        Fornication – seed sown to multiple partners.
        Adultery – A union between a man and a woman made unlawful because of an existing marriage. Please note the union can only be broken because of death for both parties.

      • Mishel says

        His first wife did but she left him not the other way around. However that was not the case as far as the second wife goes and why go back to the first after divorcing her?

        • Jamez says

          Did Debbie commit adultery on Donnie? I was led to believe by a senior ministry member that Debbie grew weary of Donnie’s new (year 2000 or there abouts) preaching direction. From memory he took on his father’s mantle of berrating Rome. She threatened him to stop. He said no. She left with Jennifer supporting her and leaving also. The man who told me owes me $500 and has refused to honour a business dealing ten years old so perhaps his word isn’t worth much. However that is what I have been told. I even emailed Donnie some encouragement which he replied to thanking me. My word. What a mess!

  61. Rick Prater says

    Sorry for keep adding. But something else that come to mind is the fact that during Jimmies “Show” Jimmie has some of the congregation to gather around the “Stage” for a “Baptism of the Holy Ghost” so they may be “Filled with the Holy Ghost”. Jimmie does not have the power to give or pray the “Holy Ghost” into anyone. All who are saved are promised the “Holy Ghost” upon repentance. And at the same time, Donnie will “Teach” some of the congregation how to “Speak in tongues”. This is one of the spiritual gifts which must come from God, and most definately cannot be taught by Donnie Swaggart or any other man. They all repeat the same set of words over and over. I personally do believe in “Tongues”, but not the casual way they repeat the same thing over and over. Surely, the Lord will give you something different to say if it is coming from Him. And I do not believe it can be turned on and off at will as the Swaggarts practice it. And how often is a required interpreter present, very seldom. And finally, I believe a person must walk a close life with God to receive any of these spiritual gifts. God will not be mocked and throw His precious gifts to the swine. Way too much fakery, but again, God cannot be deceived, and will not always tolerate evil.

  62. Rick Prater says

    I would rather be poor and have a good heart than be rich with a evil and wicked heart. And besides that according to the Bible, a rich man cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. I am so thankful that salvation cannot be bought or sold.

  63. Rick Prater says

    I would rather be poor and have a good heart than be rich with a evil and wicked heart. And besides that according to the Bible, a rich man cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. I am so thankful that salvation cannot be bought or sold. Salvation comes only by the shedding of Jesus precious blood. The cross alone is just an object and does not have the power to save anyone.

    • T.Heim says

      Rick Prater,

      Excellent comments all! I agree that the Swaggart ministry should be exposed! I find it truly disheartening that they can garner as much support as they have. It’s still relatively small in the scheme of things. With all the claimed “hundreds of millions of homes” that get SBN, they can’t even pack out their church in Baton Rouge (Family Worship Center-FWC). They fall short of their monthly fund-raising goal every month, but constantly tell stories about how individuals are always walking up and handing them huge checks that make up the difference. Of course, no one actually knows what the true expenses of the ministry are, nor the actual monies brought in, as the family controls it all! The structure of their organization speaks volumes! Where no checks and balances are present, there is guaranteed corruption! It’s clearly obvious that the vast majority of their followers are poorly educated, non-critically thinking individuals which makes them easy to manipulate. It’s disgusting!

  64. jay plotczyk says

    Wow! You covered an amazing amount of ground and it should be turned into a book to expose this travesty!
    Many of us cannot believe these people are allowed to get away with their behavior. Worse yet, how they can possibly bamboozle so many unsuspecting true believers. What a scam, and shame on that pathetic family!
    In the long term God will deal with them, but in the interim, you could have a best seller by exposing the facts.
    We TRULY hope you will pursue this further and DO NOT be intimidated by their money or potential threats.
    We NEED someone like you you to expose the REAL TRUTH regarding these manipulative ingrates. Thanks!

    • T.Heim says


      Totally agree with your comments! I keep hoping that enough people will be exposed to this and will speak out and stop supporting them.

      Donnie is going to several cities this year to put on “crusades” like his dad used to do. The first one is in Phoenix, AZ. I’m going to be visiting my folks when he’s in town. I may go out of curiosity to see what the response is, SBN isn’t available on my parent’s cable system, so I’m not sure how many people will know about this. It will be interesting….

  65. Gina Hilton says

    Wow, I just wanted to post my comments on Gabe’s preaching style ( I am Not a fan) and found all this. I don’t believe Gabe has the gift his grandfather has or his dad. I don’t like the phony crying preacher style that Swaggart has worn out & now Gabe is imitating. They need to have Gabriel wait another 10-15 years and he might be ready. I think Gabe’s calling is not in preaching but he’s eagerly waiting in the wings. This is a show biz family that loves the Lord. Jimmy’s preaching style is all over the place then he breaks into song. Frances wears the pants, that’s easy to see. I’m not an insider on any of this but it’s fairly easy to pick up what’s going on if you are insightful. Didn’t Pastor Larsen leave because of Swaggart’s controlling nature? But he’s back, that’s good. You have to be dedicated & disciplined to work there & maybe a good pair of blinders? I love the old time gospel music, the singers, the choir & the congregation. Jimmy is a gifted musician. Yes, I suppose they are fleecing the flock, don’t they all? Someone has to pay for Frances facelifts. I don’t judge any mistake Jimmy made 25 years ago or now. We all make them. Jimmy has mellowed & grown in the Lord. His memory is amazing for an 80 year old. I love them regardless of their flaws. There is nothing to be gained from this type of non Christian back stabbing. So it would be best to shut this thing down. To the woman who started this blog; you must have been very hurt. But on the other hand you have to know that what you are doing here is hurting yourself even more. It will follow you and slap you down at every turn. Praise God & forgive us for this.

    • T. Heim says


      You state “Jimmy has mellowed and grown in the Lord.” I have to wonder just how much to actually listen and/or pay attention to what these people say every day over their network. Their doctrines and interpretation of the scriptures is as incorrect and ignorant as their knowledge of medicine, psychology, current events, politics, history and the state of the modern church and Christianity!

  66. david mahady says

    These people are self deceived money grubbing charlatans they very simply dont obey the word of God associating with the greedyTimothy(those who suppose that Godliness is a means of gain and since they wont withdraw from the phony (criminal ruse makers who run the tv ministries multi billion dollar and t he organized criminal associations fostered lead from phoniness to phoniness sin to sin and into the fire)Elijah is coming with power and we may see a lot of phonies dropping like flies refrence Annanias and Sappira.The Christian church as the Beatles noted(they very much rightly and correctly asserted had become phony(“and we’re doing it better” meaning that other than the bible the Beatles are greatest expression of God mankind has other than the bible so that in this era of spiritually bankrupt boring nefarious lets throw in horny churches your best bet rather than attending poisonous (so called Christian) churches is to listen to and pray to go higher with the Beatles (which will result in the abundant life Jesus spoke of “absolute joy we almost attained it with the Beatles”(best thing ever happened to me the Beatles) then find one or two Christian friends who havn’t sold their misguided souls to the phony preachers and churches like Swaggert so that you fellowship with one or two real Christians and thats the best you can do in this infected charade of a society

  67. John says

    Several years ago my wife and I supported this ministry. We even joined their media church. God opened our eyes to the truth and we completely stopped all support and did not watch any more telecast. We also tried to get our media church membership cancelled but they will not adhere to our requests. We have sent numerous requests that our media church membership be cancelled and that they take us off all mailing lists. We even tried sending a request with return receipt, but we never received the signature return receipt. Nothing works. We keep receiving mailings and requests for donations. Sigh…. So sad.

  68. Billy says

    I’ve always enjoyed the simple logic of Jude when considering these types of men. These men fear not God. There evil is classified as a whole other beast when God considera judgement. Considering leaven corrupts the whole, and Solomon’s wise words of Prov 30:8, I marvel at their lascivious lives. Look at verses 10 & 11. They speak evil of those things they know not. Tie this in with verse 9 and that is essentially the entire charismatic/pentecostal sewer. Without the Swaggart’s follyful teaching, along with many other big names, this idiocy would thankfully expire and rot for the corpse it is. Excess is the lot of those of as can be seen in verse 11. The Swaggart’s, and all those heartfelt supporters, are guilty of these sins. Ah the penny drops. Now I know why their adulteries, fornications are so, so common. Look at verse 8. As the men of Sodom and Gomorrah gave themselves over to filth…. verse 8 ….. Likewise also these filthy dreamers. I thoroughly love Jude as a work of God.
    Chapter 1

    1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

    2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

    3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

    9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

    11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

    12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

    13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.

    17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

    18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

    19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

    20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

    21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

    23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

    24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

    25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

    • James says

      Hi Billy. Thanks for the comment. I agree about Jude. I have always felt comfort in my stand against Hagin’s Heros when reading this short but poignant epistle. Such a fearful thought when considering God’s end for these thoroughly wicked men.

    • James says

      Picking up the rope! Is that a male prison joke? No worries. The rope? stays grounded. Your type thrills in the intellectual debate. Not actually the point of the debate. So being mindful of a fool being known for his much speaking I’ll leave my comments here. If you respond further, I will not.

    • James says

      Hi Billy. Don’t despair.Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. As always when iron strikes iron sparks and heat accompanied by a loud noise occur.The end result however is a sharper wit with a stronger witness. These forums are extremely limited as far as fellowship is concerned. However no ill will is intended. I have crossed swords a few times with T Heim a few times also and a vigorous discussion has ensued. As I said. No ill will. Isn’t that right T Heim?

  69. Lee Churchill says

    Can you provide substanciated proof of the allegations that you have made against the swaggarts?

  70. BK says

    I was just looking @ Sonlife Broadcasting’s face book page,and a lady named Barbra Jordan posted that the spirit of the lord spoke in tounges and said this should be about giving extra money to the praise a thon.

    While I believe in speaking in tounges,the bible also tells us to try the spirits to see if these messages are from God’s Holy spirit or not.

    JMO,but I believe that message Barbara posted is not from God’s Holy sprit,because if it was,IMO,that would make god a respector of persons.By that I mean,from the way Barbra worded the message,she made it sound like God was telling people to give to Swaggart’s ministries,and only his ministries.I don’t believe God is gonna favor Swaggart’s ministires over another ministry.

    I also believe it was God’s holy spririt that showed me not to give to the Swaggart ministries,because 99.9 percent of the stuff they do is not from him.As far as souls,I give to the Billy Graham ministry,because I believe what they are doing is of God.

    I also believe this website is from God,because it exposes the Truth about the Swaggarts.

      • BK says

        I disagree.Billy Graham preaches the gospel without judging,and he also does not take a lot of time begging for money.Like Swaggart does.Billy & his gang only take a minute of the TV program asking for money.Swaggart takes a long time (an hour or longer) begging for money.

        Just because Jimmy speaks in toungs does not give him,Frances,Donnie or Gabriel the right to judge us Country Music fans,and say we are not Christians because we Love Country Music.

        I make no apology for defending Billy graham.In my book,he IS a man of God! And,Billy had Country singers @ his past crusades,so he does not judge us because we like Country music.

        I might add,one time someone told me they knew someone who wrote to Billy about the book they were offering,but the person said in the letter they had no money.Billy & the team sent them the book anyway,free of charge.Now I cal lthat a move of god.

        • James says

          Hi again. I know nothing of Mr. Graham’s marketing techniques, however I do know a little of his history. Firstly, I care not for deceivers such as Jimmy-Lee Swaggart so as for the comparison you’ve made that is not effectual to me. Both are erroneous! I wish you would however conclude from the scriptures, not your personal tastes. Jimmy Swaggart merely appeals to a particular audience not addressed by others hence his cult-like following. His errors are egregious and many as this site, along with others, deliniates. As for William Graham, the long history of his compromises with the Whore of Rome is documented well and can be verified by comparing with scripture. I noticed your like of Mr. Graham seems predicated on his acceptance of Country music as opposed to Mr. Swaggart’s disannulling. Jesus said nothing on music directly however scripture has many examples of admonishing the saint to sing psalms and spiritual songs unto the Lord! There is something to that, I believe. Paul said, “all things are lawful to me, but none have me captive”. If you want to listen to music, watch television, watch movies et al, then do so knowing that scripture also says, ” set no evil thing before thine eyes”. It also says, “take heed what you hear”. Again the scripture says, ” what thou doest, do unto the LORD”. No condemnation, just plain scripture. Solomon’s travails through Ecclesiastes is cause celebre for the saint to all things ‘under the sun’. If you want to hear of all things pertinent to you on this earth, cease reading all things and make Ecclesiastes your next read! Much perplexing pertaining to this earthly sojourne will cease when you commit to obey God’s wise counsel given through Solomon in Ecclesiastes. As for Jimmy Swaggart and Billy Graham or any other name of man, may they all diminish so that Christ is glorified!

          • BK says

            I disagree,and I don’t believe that, whereever you heard that from.

            I believe Billy is a man of God,he did what God has called him to do.Many people have come to know the Lord through Billy Graham.

            Also,I would rather hear a preacher that does not play God,and judge someone because they listen to secular music,or of a different faith! I make no apology for defending Billy Graham of Franklin Graham.

            Plus,just because Jimmy Swaggart and The Swaggarts speak in toungs,does not give them the right to point the finger of judgement at me and say I am not A Christian because I love Country Music.The last time I checked,the bible does not say “Judge not Lest Ye be juged except Jimmy Swaggart,or the Swaggarts”.It just says “Judge not Lest Ye Be judged” period.Yet the Swaggarts ignore that bible verse and judge us if we are of a different faith,listen to secular music,etc.

            Billy Graham DOES NOT do that.Neither does Franklin Graham.They are of God,IMO.

            Say what you want about Mr.Graham,but I will make no apology for defending him,and Franklin.

            I might add,God has let Billy make it to 98 years old.He must be doing something right for God.

        • James says

          Hi BK. Sorry for the delay in response. As for the to and fro on Mr. William Graeme I consider it utterly redundant to continue to comment because it is going to be my opinion versus your opinion. I’m sure we both only want the glory of God through his son. As for a man reaching 98, that really is proof of God’s grace. That can indeed be interpreted two ways. God blessing a faithful servant, or God’s mercy on a wicked man waiting for repentance. Naturalistic arguements like Willy Graeme being 98 years old prove nothing. What is required is an assessment of his words. Or more to the point, lack of them. The scripture rebukes those who partake with idols (demon spirits) and tells the believer to turn from anyone who does fellowship with those idolaters. Willy made his name placing Imams, Buddhists, gurus, essentially all manner of leader of falsehood and wikedness on the stage with him. Frankie, his son, has continued this pernicious practice also! This is merely one example of the ungodly folly of this man Willy. Look, this forum is to discuss the egregious error of the Swags! Jimmy-Lee specifically. However, all unfruitful work of darkness needs to be exposed.

          • BK says

            Your right,it’s my opinion vs your opinion.

            And I make no apology for saying this.Billy has had an alter call at all his crusades,giving people a chance for people to come to know Jesus as God.Franklin has done this as well.(He did this during his visit to the state capitiols in all 50 states.).

            Many people have come to know Christ through Billy’s ministry.And people are still coming to know Jesus through his TV repeats on TBN,through Decision magazine,Franklin Graham,Will Graham,etc.And through Billy’s website.

            That is an example of great fruit God has produced through Billy,Franklin & Will.There is no unfruitful work through the Graham’s ministry.So I disagree,respectfully with you.

            And,while I make no apology for defending Billy Graham as a man of God,I also do agree this board is to discuss the error of the Swaga.I have done this too in my previous posts,and will continue to so when necessary.Happy Easter.

  71. Lydell Livingston-Jones says

    Thank you for posting this. While it is enlightening, I am not surprised by any of it. I watch Frances & Friends as well as Insight frequently. After watching for more than 2 years I have yet to see anyone on either of those shows exhibit the joy of the Lord. (Nehemiah 8:10) Instead, I see a spirit of bitterness, judgment, condemnation, and self-righteousness. In fact, in my house we refer to Jim Nations as Jim condem-Nations. Donnie is particularly arrogant and petulant. I am appalled by the way he treats his mother on the show. He gets visibly upset with her, which is somewhat understandable. It’s clear that Mrs. Swaggart is not a very well educated person and she makes a lot of ignorant comments. But the woman is still his mother and he needs to respect her.

    While I don’t think JSM constitutes a false cult, I would say it has some of the traits of a false cult. I think some of Jimmy Swaggart’s preaching on the cross is nothing short of apostasy as is his Expositor’s Study Bible. Many learned Christian scholars concur on this. I’m not surprised the Swaggarts had to start their own network as I’m sure many of the other Christian networks would refuse to air their programming.

    I will continue to pray for the employees of JSM who seem to be victims more than employees. Your account of working there reminds me of someone who works at a North Kroean concentration camp. It sounds just dreadful and nothing remotely close to Christian. I think we also need to pray for so many of the people who watch JSM faithfully and are often deceived into giving JSM money they don’t have for causes the ministry doesn’t support.

    May God have mercy on the Swaggarts.

    • James says

      Hi BK. This tete-a-tete is tedious. The information is freely available to confirm what I have said. Regrettably this type of discussion degrades to personal comments where the initial topic is forgotten. You mentioned Billy Graeme positively while I mentioned him negatively. And so it goes ……….. You, I mean no harm. Falsehood and lies, I wish God’s judgement! Christ will consume those with the sword of his mouth who love and make a lie. In this, I rejoice. As for Billy Graeme, his son and a myriad of others God will judge for good, or for bad.

  72. says

    You Shall know my disciples by the Love thy have for one another. All I am going to say is Franklin Gram was the only one while praying at the inauguration of President Trump prayed in Jesus name. As for Jimmy Swaggart I have very good personal reason to know he is in big spiritual trouble! God Help him.

    Peace dear ones: I pray for greater discernment for us all! I have a little something to share about tempering iron. Many years ago I asked the Holy Spirit to teach me the word of God. One was iron sharpens iron. I was very young in the Lord and being hurt by fellow Christians. Thy justified there treatment of me by quoting this scripture! As i prayed about this, this is what i heard by the Spirit “In Gods kingdom iron sharpens iron when tempered by Gods love.” So beautiful! I have learned to love by forgiving.

  73. James says

    Hello. It’s been so long since anyone posted on this blog I thought I’d try and stimulate something. So how is everyone?

    • TheIM says

      Doing very well James! I guess there is nothing new to add. Swaggart is still on the air, still lying and polluting the airwaves with his ignorant, obnoxious drivel! Foolish people are still turning over their hard-earned money to continue to build the wealth of the Swaggarts! It’s disgusting, but alas, the Swaggarts arent the only charlatans out there! It saddens and frustrates me the ignorance of so many religious people!

      • James says

        I don’t really follow Swags anymore. He was my guru once however I kept reading God’s word and praying for his truth which of course will always lead a searching soul away from a cult. This is what The Swagman’s Ministry is now I believe. By focusing on the ‘cross’ (wooden pieces called the petibulum and stipend) the focus is moved off the blood ( which alone cleanses and redeems). A simple shift which leaves a bloodless religion after the order of Cain offering man’s fruit to God and rejecting the lamb. God said to Cain “sin lieth at the door”. To offer correct terminology and neo-orthodoxic faith is leading to another Jesus, another gospel.

          • James says

            I am doing fine. The fight of faith becomes wearisome at times. Family members feigning love for the saviour. Persecution because you stick to and quote God’s holy word to show the truth on any issue. All the time a zeal for God’s truth bids you on. The sword of the spirit causes fiery darts of the wicked one!

  74. James says

    I suppose in a sense I chased away so many commentators who had contributed through hard answers. Come back! Let’s build this forum into something usable.


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