THE JOURNAL OF PRACTICAL CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY

The False Teachings of Sinless Perfection
O wretched man I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Here before us in Romans 7 is a clear and straight forward biblical illustration of man's true spiritual state. Our faithful brother Paul publicly proclaims that in all his earthly efforts, what a wretched man that he is. He does not attest to be a great man of God, a stellar missionary, or a gifted healer. He does not boast of his daily prayer time or how often he reads the scriptures. While he could not have been a faithful servant of God without prayer and devotion, in honesty and humility Paul acknowledges that his weaknesses are far greater than his spiritual accomplishments.

Some will argue that here in Romans 7 Paul is referring to his life prior to his conversion but that conclusion is not supported by the text. Honestly there is not a verse in the book that would clearly support the argument that Paul was referring to his life prior to his conversion in penning these accounts of Romans 7. The position that Paul was referring to life before his new birth is generally only accepted by Christian perfectionists who claim to have mastered their walk with the Lord and seek to deny Paul's admission of being in such a sinful state after experiencing the new birth.

Relative to the perfect life of Christ, we all fail miserably in our Christian walk. It is very easy to measure up against our worldly neighbors who have no regard for the word of God or even many professing believers without the evidence of the new birth. Yet relative to Christ and His perfect being, we all fall far short of mastering the Christian life. As the Bible clearly tells us, our own righteousness is as filthy rags in the site of God. It is only through the substitution of the perfect Lamb and His perfect life that we have restitution for our sins. Does the Bible not tell us this? Does the book of Ephesians not read, "For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast." Yes we as believers should always strive for perfection but with the clear understanding that only in Paradise will we be able to achieve such a goal. Our sanctification should involve a constant process of refinement and we should show steady growth in this area. However, this will require us to keep our eye on our true prize which is the perfection of Christ with the knowledge that we will not be completely free of sin until sin is removed from us by Christ in Glory.

In light of Romans 7 and the whole of scripture, is it possible to perfect the Christian life as many now say they have done? Should one be expected to live above sin? Through the way of escape can man consistently conquer his flesh to the degree that he can live a sinless life? Can we become heirs of eternal life through our own efforts to overcome sin?

It is saddening to hear the folly of many of the Christian perfectionists who attest to some level of sinlessness in their own life and hold that as the standard for others. This is obviously a reflection of their limited understanding of the magnitude of man's sin. This is very detrimental to those who look to them for spiritual guidance as their followers are pointed to an unattainable plateau as the benchmark of their success in living the Christian life. This can easily fester into depression and discouragement when the honest individual recognizes their inability to live at such a level. Christian perfectionists are actually no closer to living a sinless life than other believers, yet by professing to do so, they actually minimize sin by claiming to be free from it. In contrast they should in fact be highlighting the depths of sin just as Paul did. Sin has a strong hold on each of us and the believer can't properly deal with such a difficult problem when there are claims by some that such a problem should not even exist.

This brief discussion on this subject is certainly not intended to be another easy believism lecture or a treatise on how someone can live any type of perverted life that they so desire and stake a claim on eternal life because of a glimmer of belief in the first coming of Christ. In as much, you could never earn your salvation and you will never attain any level of mastery of the Christian life this side of Glory. I will add that there is nothing any more prideful in this life than for a believer to claim to have overcome sin.

I recall a brother with perfectionist leanings once asking me if I had struggles with sin in my life and I quickly responded that I sure did. I am the first to admit that I struggle daily with pride, impatience, I am not always thankful for my trials, that I do not always show 100% love in responding to my family, that my responses to undesired situations are not always charitable, that my thoughts are not always as pure and kind as they should be, that at times I make poor choices with my time and finances, that there are times when I display selfish behavior, that my trust in God is not perfect and at times that I have fears, ....... , the list goes on and on. I went on to ask the fellow did he not struggle in these areas? That brought a quick end to the discussion as his pride in his spiritual accomplishments was reduced by the light of truth. Sure we should not struggle with cheating on our wife, being a drunkard, or stealing from my neighbor but this is not the crux of sin in the believer's life. These heinous sins of the body should not master us as believers but freedom from the worst of sins and freedom from all of our sins is two different things.

As we consider the life of our Savior, it is in these areas of the heart that we marvel most at the perfection of Christ. Imagine a God-man that never thought an ill thought or said an ill word. Imagine a Being that used His every resource to the glory of God. Consider the Son who was never lazy or selfish in any degree whatsoever. Consider One with perfect humility who was free from all forms of pomp and pride. Consider that He never had any doubts or fears for His trust in the Father was perfected. Is it remotely possible for sinful man to duplicate this perfection in every area of life? Of course not as sin has permeated our entire being! Might I add that there is no middle ground with God and anything less than perfection equates to sin. Who can proclaim that even for a day they were perfectly thankful for every obstacle in their life? This would include being perfect in their service to God and not having a single doubt or care in the world for they had absolute trust in God. This would include all of their thoughts being 100% pure and their being in absolute compliance with over a thousand New Testament commandments. Apart from the person of Christ this just isn't going to occur this side of glory.

So what is the end of these claims of sinlessness by those in the church? I would attest to the fact that it produces greater pride, greater arrogance, and greater ignorance. Moreover it lessens the perfection of Christ through their false claims of duplicating His efforts even to the least degree. While Christian perfectionists will not likely claim that they never sin, to try to reduce their shortcomings to anything short of a daily struggle with sin is a grave act of irreverence to our King. Paul did not dare to err in this fashion and publicly proclaimed O wretched man that I am. I stand with Paul on this one and in like fashion proclaim O wretched man that I am. What but the perfect life of Christ could save me from death? Could my good works and personal efforts ever merit favor with God in light of the magnitude of my shortcomings? Are my good works a reflection of the grace in my life or have I succeeded in overcoming sin on my own? O wretched man that I am, thanks be to the substitutionary work of Christ that I can rest peacefully with the promise of eternal life!

Thanks Tim,  I'm glad someone else recognizes the dangers of what Strom is endorsing.

Road to Zion:
" When you first appeared on Strom's forum, you were more than happy to join in the bashing and trashing with them."

What you call bashing and trashing was opposition to a sel-proclaimed prophetess'  statement and
 belief that her words that Jesus spoke to her and through her carries the same weight and authority as the Scriptures.
And that we should regard her words the same that we do the Scriptures.
She is walking in the belief that she is infallible.

So I do not apologize for trying to persuade her otherwise.

BTW Andrew denies teaching sinless perfection, yet when I directly asked him if he believes
a Christian can attain a state of sinlessness, he refused to give me an answer.
His sermon above proves that he does.

Andrew has much flawed theology, certainly. There are several things that do not line up with scripture in what he is stating there.  I kind of get the point he is making in terms of being aware in the inner man of our status before God. But it is not a special annointing or achievement as Wesley and Finney would suggest.  Rather, it is our state and position before God.  We are all in the process of being santificed yet before God are already there.  The Bible in fact points to differing levels of maturity.  The fact is preaching like this and others can vary to the other side away from the "easy believism" and liberty to focusing on each and every error and constantly questioning where you are before God.  We are all being refined and at no point "reach it" yet before God have already "gotten there."  If that status were not so, none of us would be able to have the Holy Spirit with us as we would be polluted and unclean.

It does not really surprise me for Andrew really lacks sound discernment. He will send mailing of folks that he appreciates but have been found wanting.  One example is his recent emailing a writing by Michael Boldea Jr, who has long been promoting false prophecy. 

His forums in past always have had someone with high levels of control and much that was questionable posted without second glance.

The site does indeed say in many places and by many people that Paul was not annointed
 and that what he wrote in the Bible was his own opinion

Andrew does indeed preach and teach that Christians can reach a state of sinlessness like Finney did.
He does not use the term "sinless perfection".  Yet if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is a duck.

Why did my post anger you so much.  Do you also believe that Christians can reach a state of
sinlessness?

article by Andrew:
A SINLESS LIFE - Is It POSSIBLE?   

"A SINLESS LIFE - Is It POSSIBLE?"
-by Andrew Strom.

Let me be very clear in opening this topic: We are talking about
the "inner man" here. And this is the secret to the 'sinless' life.

Paul wrote about it in Romans - John too in 1 Jn 3. Much of
Wesley's powerful preaching revolved around this one issue. And
Finney wrote about it this way: "I could not feel a sense of guilt or
condemnation by any effort I could make. My sense of guilt was
gone, my sins were gone, and I do not think I felt any more sense
of guilt than if I never had sinned... I felt myself justified by faith,
and, so far as I could see, I was in a state in which I did not sin."

Wow! Shock! Are we saying that it is possible to live in a state in
which there is no consciousness of "present sin" at all? Am I
saying that this is actually "normal" Christianity? -Yes, that is
exactly what I am saying.

"Normal" Christianity is this: Walking before God with a totally
clean conscience and a pure heart - as our 'normal' state before
Him. -Utterly clean. No STRIVING or "TRYING to be good". This
is clearly what the New Testament describes as normal. -Literally
walking before God with "no consciousness of present sin". Notice
that Finney (above) refers to this as a state of "justification by faith".
And he is absolutely right. That is exactly what it is. It is as basic
as that. -Elemental Christianity.

The saddest thing of all is that we never hear it preached today.
It is almost as though such a thing is too "lofty" - out of reach
of the average church-goer. Or perhaps the preachers themselves
do not believe it is possible to live in such a state. They do not
experience it themselves, and therefore they do not preach it. How
awful beyond words! How we are robbing people blind with the
neglect of these basic truths! No wonder so few are getting truly saved.

I tell you, this is the basic Gospel we are talking about here. It is
nothing less. Today we somehow think that we preach the 'gospel'
simply by relating the facts of Jesus dying for our sins, rising again
and offering salvation freely. -Yes, these things are important. But
what about becoming a "new creature" and walking in it? What
about the fact that Jesus came to 'TAKE AWAY' our sins? What
about a 'new birth' that utterly transforms us from the inside out?
-That actually MAKES us clean and KEEPS us clean? Where is
this basic stuff in our preaching? Where do we actually describe
what happens inside a "truly saved" person?

We have so reduced the gospel today to make it more "convenient"
that it is no gospel at all. And thus we have entire church-loads
of people who are completely unsaved. They go down the front
and pray the "little prayer", then they spend the rest of their lives
paying their tithes and "trying to be good". -This is what a lot of
our Christianity amounts to. And it is all garbage. It is no "new
birth" at all. Wesley would be rolling in his grave to see what we
preach as the 'new birth' today.

Such was Wesley's preaching of the 'sinless life' in his day (and
Finney too) that both of them were accused of "perfectionism".
But I think that what a lot of people misunderstand is that it is
the 'INNER LIFE' that we are talking about here. -Yes, we are still
attached to a "fallen" body - which sometimes stumbles - much
as we hate it. Paul says, "Oh wretched man that I am, who will
deliver me from the BODY of this death?" (Rom 7:24). But in the
very next breath he answers: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord..."

So it is not the 'outer' life, but the INNER one that we are speaking
of here. (-Though the 'outer' will be affected, of course. We must
walk in "NO KNOWN SIN"). It is Jesus who gives us robes of
righteousness to WALK IN - in the "Inner Man". That is what
Romans chapters 5 - 8 are all about. That is what 'justification by
faith' is all about: WALKING in a "sinless life" inside. Pure white
robes - given to us by God - for us to walk in and keep "unspotted".

That is true Christianity: To walk before God with a totally clean
conscience and a pure heart before Him. -No known sin. Anything
less is no Christianity at all. It simply cannot be found in the New
Testament. You are either a "new creation" and WALKING as a
'new creation' - or you are not. There is no room for a "half-way" house.

Today, we are no longer bringing people into this state with our
preaching. And therefore I say to you - "WE HAVE LOST THE
GOSPEL". And when we lose the gospel, we lose Christianity itself.

Wesley spent much of his life preaching on this stuff. (Go and
read his sermon "Marks of the New Birth" for instance. -One of
the most convicting messages of all time). Little wonder that
sometimes when he preached, thousands of people would be left
on the ground under agonizing conviction. Little wonder too that
after Finney preached, sometimes church-goers were in such
shock that they could not speak or stand for days - they were so
stricken. These were people who thought they were 'saved' but
Finney had shown them that they were not - in the most direct
and piercing way.

We say we want "apostolic preaching" and true "Revival" preachers.
I don't think we realize what we are asking for. -Such searching,
direct, bold and convicting preaching as we have never heard in our lives.

In August 2003 God woke me up at 4:00am one morning with a
sudden insight into Finney's preaching - how he would expose "false
assurance". God showed me that I had to start preaching that way
too. From then on, every time I preached this message I began to
notice a big increase in anointing and conviction. I have seen whole
congregations of up to 1000 people stand as one when the altar
call was given, and people coming forward weeping and confessing
sin. And I have noticed a similar impact when I preach on "A Sinless
Life" (-ie. Walking before God with a pure heart and conscience as
our NORMAL STATE). But I'm convinced that there is a greater
anointing yet unseen, waiting for us all in future days.


So are YOU walking in a 'sinless life' today, my friends?

God bless you all.

Kindest regards in Christ,

Andrew Strom.

There's no distinction made either in the Didache or the Scripture - Paul is an apostle. And the Didache does say "every apostle" and EVERY is pretty all inclusive.

Please understand that I am NOT saying that Paul should be judged a 'false prophet' - I am saying that the Didache is not Scriptural and should NOT be treated as such. Therefore it has no real authority.

I read your post and decided to go and see for myself. It took some looking, as this topic was pretty much dead on Strom's forum weeks ago, but eventually I found it. I read the thread "Can a Christian Sin"http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/bbpress/topic/506 closely and I have to tell you that your 'conclusion' at the end was utterly ridiculous and utterly wrong. You ignored what they posted in favor of what you wanted to see.

You said

No one said that - nor did they imply it. Just the opposite, in fact.

The other threads were: The Doctrine of Sinless Perfection
http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/bbpress/topic/537
and
Finneyism or Following Finney
http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/bbpress/topic/550

You make the accusation that:


I'm not a big fan of Strom, but you distort his views and teaching (deliberately, it seems) in what you say here. In fact, Strom says, in reply to your Finney post:

You also make the accusation that:

Neither of these statements are accurate, according to what I read on the threads. NO ONE claimed to have reached sinless perfection, if fact, you are the one who used that term and most UTTERLY repudiated it.

Nor was a 'critique' of Finney said to be 'not permitted' - except by you. In fact, I saw several other people 'critiquing' Finney.

Andrew Strom has some serious problems in his beliefs and several more in his ego issues. He is both prideful and presumptuous, and I believe that God is dealing with Strom on these issues. I firmly believe that Strom's being denied entrance to the USA recently is a direct judgment on STROM'S unrighteous behaviors in the near past - some involving the antics on that forum. Andrew has quite a personality cult going, too.

As for Strom's Forum, it is tightly controlled and NOT by the Holy Spirit. The main moderator is clearly a control freak and lacks any real discernment. If John the Baptist actually showed up, they would bann him.   

That being said, Shirley, you are coming across as just someone who got mad because you didn't get the treatment you thought you should have. When you first appeared on Strom's forum, you were more than happy to join in the bashing and trashing with them. But, when they didn't agree with you on an issue, you turned on them.

You attempt to cast yourself as a someone who exposes error, but you have twisted and distorted the facts here to make your case. You don't expose error by making unfounded accusations, nor can you rebut lies with lies and half-truths.

So, as far as I can see, you need to get your own house in order before you go after anyone else. There is a big difference between 'contending for the faith' and deliberately trying to stir up trouble.

His followers on his site actually claim that they have reached a point where they never sin!
Here is a post I wrote on his forum.  This thread was closed as critique of Finney's teaching
is not permitted:

"I think I’d rather go beat my head against the wall somewhere than to write this.
As I know I am going against the masses here.

It took me a while to figure out that this site and Andrew are promoting the doctrine of sinless perfection which was made popular by Wesley.
This doctrine was I believe inspired by Madame Guyon. It is also taught in the Latter Rain and Manifest Sons of God movements.
This teaching even goes further by some who say that if you sin once you have to start over and be born again.

I went straight to Andrew by e-mail to see where he stands on this issue as it is his forum. Actually Andrew never answered my question, “can Christians attain sinlessness”.
I did learn, however, by his material that he does indeed teach this.

It seems that the actual words are not spoken. Rather it is taught without speaking the words “sinless perfection”.

Why all the secretiveness? If this is believed to be the gospel truth, why not admit exactly what you believe. Why the secrecy? I believe it is because it is known that this is a contraversial doctrine.
Why do you think it is so contraversial? Do you think all
who oppose it are simply immature babes who do not understand
the "deep" concepts here. Do you think all are people who
excuse sin or trample the grace of God? This concept
has already created an elitism.

Frankly, when I found out what was being promoted here, I was hit hard.
I was supporting Andrew and appreciating that he was giving a place for those of us to gather who have been hit by deception from every side.

Frankly, I had not totally realized what Wesley and Finney  had been teaching. I am astounded. I consider this teaching to be even more damaging to the sheep than the OSAS message.

Every teaching will bring forth fruit.
This minimizes the importance of the blood atonement and the imputed righteousness of Jesus.
Simply put it elevates man and decreases God.

Mark 10:18 (KJV) 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Romans 3:10 (KJV) 0 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 10:4 (KJV) 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Galatians 2:16 (KJV) 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV) 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
So if you what you are correct, when we stand before Him we will not need His blood to impute righteousness, we can be received because we are sinless. What arrogance. What presumption.

Are we better than Paul who struggled and admitted that he was chief of sinners?
1 Timothy 1:15 (KJV) 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Romans 7:18-23 (KJV) 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Galatians 5:17 (KJV) 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

I realize that you are sincere mature Christians who do know the Word, and that you deeply believe what you are espousing. This could easily become a battle of dueling scriptures. I humbly ask that you would consider what you are promoting as it is a teaching that can turn people into self-righteous prideful people who are leaning on their own righteousness.

I sincerely hope that this will not be deleted. If what you are espousing is correct, then you should allow it to be questioned and brought to light.

1 John 1:8 (KJV) 8 IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US.

The scripture that I kept getting about this site is:
Genesis 3:5 (KJV) 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
And:
1 Corinthians 10:12 (KJV) 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

And I appreciate that you are a praying people. However, I humbly ask that if you do pray for me that you do not pray that I come into this doctrine.

This is a very serious teaching and I openly renounce and reject it.

I plead not out of anger but a deep grief that this doctrine is growing in numbers.
I spent many years chasing the deep things of God only to find the wisdom of returning to the simplicity of devotion to Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:3 (KJV) 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
The gospel is profound yet simple. It is only by the blood of Jesus that we are made holy.

I keep reading about "cleanness" indicating that we will
achieve the state of sinlessness and then we will be clean.

The blood of Jesus cleanses and imputes righteousness to those
of us have not "come to perfection" here on earth.
So we can boldy enter the throne of God. We can approach Him
with clean hands because His blood has washed us white as snow.

We can approach him not because we have attained "self-righteousness" but because His blood has cleansed us.

I humbly submit this song, And it is only a song, but it portrays my heart:
Just as I am without one plea.
But that His blood was shed for me.
And that thou bidst me come to thee
Oh Lamb of God I come, I come."

While I have been appreciative of Andrew Stroms opposition to the NAR, etc. 
I recently became aware while on his forum that he is teaching some very deceptive stuff, himself.

Seems Strom is a fervent fan of Charles Finney.  Finney taught some very controversial opinions
that spoke of "Sinless perfectionism".  This teaching states that we as Christians are to reach a state
of "sinlessness" in which we will come to a place where we never sin.

His teachings actually are teaching a salvation by works message.

Beware of Andrew Strom!.

You are right about the Didache. But I don't think that Paul, who planted the churches he stayed at, would fall under that rule. He was the planter not a mere visitor.

While it is interesting, the didache is NOT Scripture and should not be taken as such. In fact, the Apostle Paul violated this rule: "Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there's a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet."